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Chord Hugo - Page 871

post #13051 of 13320
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jawed View Post

The Hugo TT product page says (effectively as a comparison with Hugo):

http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/products-info.asp?id=96
Which is an admittance that Hugo's dynamics and handling of demanding transients can be improved. Is TT as good as it needs to be? It seems unlikely since there are some very power hungry headphones out there. Some people think TT has problems with dynamics playing into HD 800 (S). I'm keeping my head stuck between my HD 800 S fed by TT - I have no interest in more equipment...

The TT is both an endgame amp/DAC or standalone DAC. With the HD800/800S it has more headroom than you'll need.
post #13052 of 13320

Does anyone know who can I contact to troubleshoot my Hugo problem as it stopped working suddenly?

 

When I switch Hugo on with the power cable attached, you can see auth blink rapidly, the charge light is on and then you would see battery and input lights blinking few times. After that all the lights goes off and repeat in this sequence.

 

I have also tried charging the Hugo completely off for 2 hours but the charging light is not on - I am presuming it is not charging  and also I couldn't switch it on without the charging/power cable attached.

 

Any idea as to what is going on with my device?

post #13053 of 13320
Quote:
Originally Posted by Currawong View Post
 

 

 

I just read the pages discussing amps. IMO, the Hugo can't reproduce the dynamics of music as well as a high-end dedicated amp can. This nothing to do with distortion measurements or whatever. A high-end DAC might have incredibly low distortion from its outputs, but that wont drive headphones well either. Maybe not the best comparison, as almost every regular DAC doesn't have a <1 Ohm output impedence, but the point is I'll trade a bit of harmonic distortion for better dynamics for preference. 

 

More annoyingly, (Trigger warning? ;)) headphones such as the LCD-X and HD800 I don't like at all with the stock cables -- certainly not directly out of a Hugo with them. With third-party cables I find them very listenable with the Hugo, if not as good with my main amp. 

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JaZZ View Post
 

 

Dynamics limitation and low harmonic distortion exclude each other, electrically speaking. Every nonlinear behavior in the amplitude domain leads to measurable harmonic distortion.

 

Are you willing to do an experiment? Switch two 330 ohm resistors in parallel to the input of your headphone amp. This passably emulates the impedance of a HD 800 for the Hugo. Now tell if there's any difference in terms of dynamics! Because the hypothesis of the Hugo's lack of power for driving headphones is implicitly based on the assumption that it can't drive a low-impedance load well.

 

From my point of view the perception of lacking dynamics – compared to dedicated headphone amps – has its cause in the warmth and fullness many or even most amps add to the original signal. And the forgivingness and opulence said colorations come with – so the Hugo's headphone output may sound thin and dry in comparison. Note that like every audio component the Hugo isn't perfectly neutral (not to speak of the high likelihood that your headphone won't sound best with a neutral amp according to your sonic preference or HRTF), so an amp with a synergetic effect (and the added euphonic forgivingness) will subjectively improve the sound, even make it seem more dynamic.

 

The good news is that there are other tools to deal with this issue! :tongue_smile: 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dallan View Post
 

 

 

This reminds me of why they moved the cable discussions to sound science years ago….

 

Also reminds me of the original Audeze LCD thread where one user commented on every single post that questioned there sound and since he was an moderator actually deleted some that he didn't agree with. I have never see this done except in that instance and have brought it up to powers that be since, though many years ago-no big deal, just an example of passion we all have, run a little wild. The guy was really nice in person and helpful as well, but got livid in the particular thread.

 

So that said,  I agree with Currawong. I am on the amp side of this and i actually think that having to use an equalizer to "fix" the sound in ridiculous. I feel EQing is the culprit and some headphones need amping. Although the Hugo as a source directly may be slightly cleaner, my experience leads me to feel that an amp helps the dynamics with harder to drive headphones. I have been biting my tongue because the argument is almost comical to read the debate but thought I would add my two cents again as I did months ago. 

 

That said, I rarely use an amp with the Hugo and when i do I use the Zana Deux, for those who wonder. If i had a lower end amp, i wouldn't consider it, and i only really use it with the HD800 because although one person insists that the Hugo drives them perfectly, I disagree. The Hugo drives them adequately, its not about volume level.

 

Have seen this subject cropping up more recently on here and don't think there are Hugo users out there that won't admit on here they are using an amp with their headphones for some obvious reasons.  

 

All i can say after seeing this discussion which is interesting is that I love my Hugo to death (almost) and has been an trans-portable Head-fi revelation that has taken me a step closer to what I hear in my  Hi-Fi speaker set up and love running it through my power amps in my Hi-Fi system as well as headphone and IEM listening.....

 

But I am one of those that feels the need to use a portable amp with it when it comes to headphones. For a long while I felt something was not right when listening to headphones with them and couldn't work it out as iem's sounded okay with the Hugo but was not until I was talking to another head-fier at Canjam London last year he said he was having the same thing and said try the Vorzuge PureII amp he had with it and immediately it was like it had plugged a leaky pipe and was getting the flow of sound back with no brittleness or anemic presentation. 

 

...And I thought I would be getting away from the three box solution and sold my old Vorzuge Duo when I got the Hugo to pair with my Walkman but after hearing a friends Hugo with the Pure became evident to me that headphones were not sounding quite right to me with just the Hugo and that was including efficient headphones and not harder to drive cans which is what surprised me at the time.

 

So believe me I was the last person who wanted to shell out another £400 to strap a portable amp but when I heard a friends Vorzuge Pureii+ amp strapped to the Hugo it solved the problem with the brittleness and gives back the solid consistency it should have and does give a more dynamic presentation with the mids not falling apart.  It has never been anything to do with volume or power as the Hugo can do that.  It is nothing to do with poor recordings as it happens with well known good recordings and I don't know if it's a voltage swing issue or something along those lines but the Hugo can not keep up in some way with headphones even easy to drive headphones.  

 

I am not technical in this domain by any means but know what I hear and believe me was the last person who wanted to spend another £400 for a solution to this with adding the Vorzuge Pureii+ amp to the Hugo as for me it's defeating one of the main reasons to having a dac/ amp combo in the Hugo to start with when I spent £1,400 on one but I do feel even after hearing what Rob has said about losing transparency in the past amping the Hugo but I feel I'm loosing a lot more not having the pure with the Hugo when using headphones.  

 

I almost forgot but strictly speaking it is not just headphones I have had to use an amp with the Hugo as I have used many iem's with the Hugo just fine without needing an amp but there is one iem that needs the Pure hooked to the Hugo is the Ortofon EQ8's.  Strange as on paper it should be okay with the Hugo but just sounds very flat line and anemic with no bass response pass the lower mid to low bass frequency's and needed the Pure to drive these with some dynamics and never knew the EQ8's actually had lower bass notes until hooked to the Pure.  In all fairness it struggled even with my ZX1 and has been reported for some reason to be a difficult iem to drive properly despite the specs stating otherwise so then made me wonder is there something that is actually makes driving a single balanced armature harder than several or sixteen in instance of my JH16's which the Hugo sounds lovely with on it's own all day long.

 

I get the funny feeling though there is something with the way the the Hugo is using the dacs power and not a dedicated headphone amp designed into the Hugo? See my only argument would be with Jazz's point ff we used amps to fulfil the warmth with dynamics thing with the Hugo why is it I can still get that same type of sound with iem's for exception of EQ8s I have come across but need to use these with headphones out there to get same results as I get with iem's without an amp strapped on? This is what perplexes me about the Hugo.  

 

Despite all that though the Hugo/ Vorzuge Pure amp combo I do find stunning and I actually do not mind carting around the three box solution (only because it sounds that good I can put up with it really) when recently listening to gear at the Headroom show last weekend @ Metropolis studios which was a great second year there.  Just wish now I had more time to have talked to Rob or Frank who were both there but was towards end of the day and like the Hi-fi rock stars they are there is always someone wanting to talk to these knowledgeable guys.  I actually tried to use the Hugo on it's own to start with headphones I tried there but became apparent I had to strap on the Pure each time hear these headphones sing so seems to be all round an not a specific headphone to me as well as my own headphones. 

 

All I know there is a few of us now using Hugo with the Vorzuge Pure amp  and is been done for a reason and don't see why people are afraid of posting their views on this if they are finding the same thing as I don't really care if someone is going to come along and try and talk me down on the subject unless it is going to be Rob or Frank who know their onions on this stuff. 

 

After all they make the stuff out of love for us to use and even brainy guys like Rob & Frank can use feedback that could help them make the next Hugo what us as customers think might be missing that just puts that icing on the cake, in this case it's the dedicated something (maybe an amp) that is not inside the Hugo that is making feel the need to bolt a £400 Vorzuge to listen to headphones with.  

 

I'm not going to loose sleep over it as i'm loving the Pure amp as it is probably one of the most underrated portable amps on here and really gives the Hugo what it needs with headphones an loving it but I would much preferred it was like this in one box to start with! 

 

Apart from that I am loving my Hugo still after living with it for a year and a half now despite the above. Guess I have to have shelled out £400 on an amp for it!

post #13054 of 13320
Quote:
Originally Posted by FortisFlyer75 View Post
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Currawong View Post
 

 

 

I just read the pages discussing amps. IMO, the Hugo can't reproduce the dynamics of music as well as a high-end dedicated amp can. This nothing to do with distortion measurements or whatever. A high-end DAC might have incredibly low distortion from its outputs, but that wont drive headphones well either. Maybe not the best comparison, as almost every regular DAC doesn't have a <1 Ohm output impedence, but the point is I'll trade a bit of harmonic distortion for better dynamics for preference. 

 

More annoyingly, (Trigger warning? ;)) headphones such as the LCD-X and HD800 I don't like at all with the stock cables -- certainly not directly out of a Hugo with them. With third-party cables I find them very listenable with the Hugo, if not as good with my main amp. 

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JaZZ View Post
 

 

Dynamics limitation and low harmonic distortion exclude each other, electrically speaking. Every nonlinear behavior in the amplitude domain leads to measurable harmonic distortion.

 

Are you willing to do an experiment? Switch two 330 ohm resistors in parallel to the input of your headphone amp. This passably emulates the impedance of a HD 800 for the Hugo. Now tell if there's any difference in terms of dynamics! Because the hypothesis of the Hugo's lack of power for driving headphones is implicitly based on the assumption that it can't drive a low-impedance load well.

 

From my point of view the perception of lacking dynamics – compared to dedicated headphone amps – has its cause in the warmth and fullness many or even most amps add to the original signal. And the forgivingness and opulence said colorations come with – so the Hugo's headphone output may sound thin and dry in comparison. Note that like every audio component the Hugo isn't perfectly neutral (not to speak of the high likelihood that your headphone won't sound best with a neutral amp according to your sonic preference or HRTF), so an amp with a synergetic effect (and the added euphonic forgivingness) will subjectively improve the sound, even make it seem more dynamic.

 

The good news is that there are other tools to deal with this issue! :tongue_smile: 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dallan View Post
 

 

 

This reminds me of why they moved the cable discussions to sound science years ago….

 

Also reminds me of the original Audeze LCD thread where one user commented on every single post that questioned there sound and since he was an moderator actually deleted some that he didn't agree with. I have never see this done except in that instance and have brought it up to powers that be since, though many years ago-no big deal, just an example of passion we all have, run a little wild. The guy was really nice in person and helpful as well, but got livid in the particular thread.

 

So that said,  I agree with Currawong. I am on the amp side of this and i actually think that having to use an equalizer to "fix" the sound in ridiculous. I feel EQing is the culprit and some headphones need amping. Although the Hugo as a source directly may be slightly cleaner, my experience leads me to feel that an amp helps the dynamics with harder to drive headphones. I have been biting my tongue because the argument is almost comical to read the debate but thought I would add my two cents again as I did months ago. 

 

That said, I rarely use an amp with the Hugo and when i do I use the Zana Deux, for those who wonder. If i had a lower end amp, i wouldn't consider it, and i only really use it with the HD800 because although one person insists that the Hugo drives them perfectly, I disagree. The Hugo drives them adequately, its not about volume level.

 

Have seen this subject cropping up more recently on here and don't think there are Hugo users out there that won't admit on here they are using an amp with their headphones for some obvious reasons.  

 

All i can say after seeing this discussion which is interesting is that I love my Hugo to death (almost) and has been an trans-portable Head-fi revelation that has taken me a step closer to what I hear in my  Hi-Fi speaker set up and love running it through my power amps in my Hi-Fi system as well as headphone and IEM listening.....

 

But I am one of those that feels the need to use a portable amp with it when it comes to headphones. For a long while I felt something was not right when listening to headphones with them and couldn't work it out as iem's sounded okay with the Hugo but was not until I was talking to another head-fier at Canjam London last year he said he was having the same thing and said try the Vorzuge PureII amp he had with it and immediately it was like it had plugged a leaky pipe and was getting the flow of sound back with no brittleness or anemic presentation. 

 

...And I thought I would be getting away from the three box solution and sold my old Vorzuge Duo when I got the Hugo to pair with my Walkman but after hearing a friends Hugo with the Pure became evident to me that headphones were not sounding quite right to me with just the Hugo and that was including efficient headphones and not harder to drive cans which is what surprised me at the time.

 

So believe me I was the last person who wanted to shell out another £400 to strap a portable amp but when I heard a friends Vorzuge Pureii+ amp strapped to the Hugo it solved the problem with the brittleness and gives back the solid consistency it should have and does give a more dynamic presentation with the mids not falling apart.  It has never been anything to do with volume or power as the Hugo can do that.  It is nothing to do with poor recordings as it happens with well known good recordings and I don't know if it's a voltage swing issue or something along those lines but the Hugo can not keep up in some way with headphones even easy to drive headphones.  

 

I am not technical in this domain by any means but know what I hear and believe me was the last person who wanted to spend another £400 for a solution to this with adding the Vorzuge Pureii+ amp to the Hugo as for me it's defeating one of the main reasons to having a dac/ amp combo in the Hugo to start with when I spent £1,400 on one but I do feel even after hearing what Rob has said about losing transparency in the past amping the Hugo but I feel I'm loosing a lot more not having the pure with the Hugo when using headphones.  

 

I almost forgot but strictly speaking it is not just headphones I have had to use an amp with the Hugo as I have used many iem's with the Hugo just fine without needing an amp but there is one iem that needs the Pure hooked to the Hugo is the Ortofon EQ8's.  Strange as on paper it should be okay with the Hugo but just sounds very flat line and anemic with no bass response pass the lower mid to low bass frequency's and needed the Pure to drive these with some dynamics and never knew the EQ8's actually had lower bass notes until hooked to the Pure.  In all fairness it struggled even with my ZX1 and has been reported for some reason to be a difficult iem to drive properly despite the specs stating otherwise so then made me wonder is there something that is actually makes driving a single balanced armature harder than several or sixteen in instance of my JH16's which the Hugo sounds lovely with on it's own all day long.

 

I get the funny feeling though there is something with the way the the Hugo is using the dacs power and not a dedicated headphone amp designed into the Hugo? See my only argument would be with Jazz's point ff we used amps to fulfil the warmth with dynamics thing with the Hugo why is it I can still get that same type of sound with iem's for exception of EQ8s I have come across but need to use these with headphones out there to get same results as I get with iem's without an amp strapped on? This is what perplexes me about the Hugo.  

 

Despite all that though the Hugo/ Vorzuge Pure amp combo I do find stunning and I actually do not mind carting around the three box solution (only because it sounds that good I can put up with it really) when recently listening to gear at the Headroom show last weekend @ Metropolis studios which was a great second year there.  Just wish now I had more time to have talked to Rob or Frank who were both there but was towards end of the day and like the Hi-fi rock stars they are there is always someone wanting to talk to these knowledgeable guys.  I actually tried to use the Hugo on it's own to start with headphones I tried there but became apparent I had to strap on the Pure each time hear these headphones sing so seems to be all round an not a specific headphone to me as well as my own headphones. 

 

All I know there is a few of us now using Hugo with the Vorzuge Pure amp  and is been done for a reason and don't see why people are afraid of posting their views on this if they are finding the same thing as I don't really care if someone is going to come along and try and talk me down on the subject unless it is going to be Rob or Frank who know their onions on this stuff. 

 

After all they make the stuff out of love for us to use and even brainy guys like Rob & Frank can use feedback that could help them make the next Hugo what us as customers think might be missing that just puts that icing on the cake, in this case it's the dedicated something (maybe an amp) that is not inside the Hugo that is making feel the need to bolt a £400 Vorzuge to listen to headphones with.  

 

I'm not going to loose sleep over it as i'm loving the Pure amp as it is probably one of the most underrated portable amps on here and really gives the Hugo what it needs with headphones an loving it but I would much preferred it was like this in one box to start with! 

 

Apart from that I am loving my Hugo still after living with it for a year and a half now despite the above. Guess I have to have shelled out £400 on an amp for it!

 

 

Interesting thoughts, and very elaborate.

 

I certainly understand the impulse or the need to combine the Hugo with a headphone amp to get the desired sound, particularly a more forgiving, more opulent and less dry sound. But that's how it sounds – with some headphones at least. Headphones and earphones are both the same electrically; acoustically they're a bit different, and that may be the reason for the higher forgivingness of IEMs – due to the canals and the reflections in them they tend to sound slightly «wet», which may compensate for the Hugo's unforgiving accuracy. Moreover many of them are rather bassy and colorful, so a bit of sobriety won't irritate. In terms of power requirements there may be some differences, but they're not worlds apart, and most headphones discussed on this forum are unproblematic to drive for the Hugo, with very low harmonic distortion. There is no mystery about headphone drive. It's just a matter of sonic synergy. I bet you'd like the fuller sound of DAVE's headphone out better with your headphones. Although the Hugo's isn't much weaker, actually – it's not a matter of power.

 

Personally I would also want to adapt the sound to my needs and the headphones I use – I'm not the one who contents himself with factory presets. It's just that you don't need an amp to taylor the sound to your needs. An amp will inevitably reduce accuracy and increase harmonic distortion – and that is what makes the forgivingness. Well, if it helps. But it gets better. You can have the full accuracy and transparency and at the same time a sound taylored to your preferences. I wonder why the concept of equalizing which is a decisive component of my argumentation gets so often ignored. With a good and versatile equalizer you can do a lot – actually much more than an amp (in terms of tayloring the sound).

post #13055 of 13320
I respectfully disagree that you can fix an under driven headphone through equalization, especially without degrading the sound. In years past users argued that the hd800 didn't need an appropriate amp, they only needed to be "fixed" through using an equalizer. Thing was that they didn't need to be fixed, just driven correctly. There is a difference between being driven and correcting the sound. Like I said before, all my other headphones I drive straight out of the Hugo, 95% of my use is direct.
post #13056 of 13320
debate whether to use amp with Hugo or not would go on. I think the issue is that with mid and low impedance phones Hugo operates in lower output range and using an amp cause Hugo to operate above 2 volt. digital attenuation in Hugo is very good but you have to get used to it. I have experienced the same phenomena with a power amp. Hugo when fed to power amp directly maintains very good dynamics and details even at very low volumes . since we are habitual of analog attenuation, therefore Hugo at low volume may sound thin and brittle to many and when using headphone amp with Hugo, Hugo operates at above 2v means headphone amp has to use analog attenuation which is more forgiving and everyone is habitual of it.
post #13057 of 13320
so Hugo extremely good with low and mid impedance phones it is at its best with high impedance phones like Beyer t1 600 ohms.
post #13058 of 13320

IMO, the difference is in the output voltage not current.

 

Hugo suits especially well with sensitive headphones requiring no more than 2 to 3 V.

 

These include the low-impedance IEMs and some 50 ohm planarmagnetics.

post #13059 of 13320
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jozurr View Post

It is almost like you can't even comment mentioning that some headphones need more power to shine and that power is not provided by the Hugo alone. Once you mention this someone or the other will explain inaudible harmonic distortion that is introduced. Why is it difficult to understand that some headphones actually need more power to shine than what the hugo can provide? It's like you can't even have your opinions based on your own listening without someone trying to prove you wrong and tell you that the whole idea of more power is a fallacy. 

Is the Hugo a very clean sounding device sufficient for many headphones? Yes. Can better sound be had on some headphones by introducing an external amplifier with the Hugo? Yes.

I agree that a good amp makes headphones sound better.

Now there is a reason why this power thing is so strongly debated. Power is measured in watts, or milliwatts, as we know. Now If we look at something like the he1000, which isn't the easiest headphone to drive, we need something like 1mw to drive it to 90db. That's pretty loud. We need 16mw to drive it to 102db. That's what power means. Now if you're saying that at 35/50 ohms, an amp cannot provide 16mw, then yes, the amp is lacking in power. The power drawn at a specific volume by a specific headphone is the same regardless of the amp. This is something that is often misunderstood. A 100W amplifier does not put out 100W continuously.

That's why there's the contention when you say that more power is needed. More power is not needed, but it doesn't mean that a better amp won't sound better.

Take for example the FiiO e12, that thing has 800mw per channel, but there's no way in hell it drives headphones better than the Hugo despite having more power. Hope this clears things up!
post #13060 of 13320
Quote:
Originally Posted by dallan View Post

I respectfully disagree that you can fix an under driven headphone through equalization, especially without degrading the sound. In years past users argued that the hd800 didn't need an appropriate amp, they only needed to be "fixed" through using an equalizer. Thing was that they didn't need to be fixed, just driven correctly. There is a difference between being driven and correcting the sound. Like I said before, all my other headphones I drive straight out of the Hugo, 95% of my use is direct.

 

Hi Dallan

 

I recall when you once told me that you like your HD 800 driven by the Hugo. :wink: Well, nothing wrong with changing your mind. My answer then was that I most likely wouldn't like it as much without modification. The reason is that the HD 800 is a bright sounding headphone with a treble peak. That's why it has been characterized as «difficult to drive» – much undeservedly so, since its high efficiency combined with high impedance is an uncritical load for all (desktop) amps I can imagine.

 

«Underdriven», «driven correctly» – I still can't imagine what these terms should mean, technically speaking. I think this approach is just based on the assumption: If it doesn't sound good, the amp isn't adequate.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by StryGR View Post
 

IMO, the difference is in the output voltage not current.

 

Hugo suits especially well with sensitive headphones requiring no more than 2 to 3 V.

 

These include the low-impedance IEMs and some 50 ohm planarmagnetics.

 

When you think about it, low impedances should actually be the most critical loads when you imply that the Hugo can perfectly «drive» the extremely high input impedances of amps (20-200 kΩ) with 3 volts and above.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by WCDchee View Post

Now there is a reason why this power thing is so strongly debated. Power is measured in watts, or milliwatts, as we know. Now If we look at something like the he1000, which isn't the easiest headphone to drive, we need something like 1mw to drive it to 90db. That's pretty loud. We need 16mw to drive it to 102db. That's what power means. Now if you're saying that at 35/50 ohms, an amp cannot provide 16mw, then yes, the amp is lacking in power. The power drawn at a specific volume by a specific headphone is the same regardless of the amp. This is something that is often misunderstood. A 100W amplifier does not put out 100W continuously.

That's why there's the contention when you say that more power is needed. More power is not needed, but it doesn't mean that a better amp won't sound better.

Take for example the FiiO e12, that thing has 800mw per channel, but there's no way in hell it drives headphones better than the Hugo despite having more power. Hope this clears things up!

 

Thanks for displaying the power issue in numbers! Of course there are better and worse sounding amps. But even the better sounding ones are not necessarily the more honest ones. With the example of the Hugo at hand, one can say that a 100% honest amp (a wire without gain) may even sound irritating, depending on system synergy, since it will also sound relatively unforgiving.

post #13061 of 13320
Quote:
Originally Posted by WCDchee View Post


I agree that a good amp makes headphones sound better.

Now there is a reason why this power thing is so strongly debated. Power is measured in watts, or milliwatts, as we know. Now If we look at something like the he1000, which isn't the easiest headphone to drive, we need something like 1mw to drive it to 90db. That's pretty loud. We need 16mw to drive it to 102db. That's what power means. Now if you're saying that at 35/50 ohms, an amp cannot provide 16mw, then yes, the amp is lacking in power. The power drawn at a specific volume by a specific headphone is the same regardless of the amp. This is something that is often misunderstood. A 100W amplifier does not put out 100W continuously.

That's why there's the contention when you say that more power is needed. More power is not needed, but it doesn't mean that a better amp won't sound better.

Take for example the FiiO e12, that thing has 800mw per channel, but there's no way in hell it drives headphones better than the Hugo despite having more power. Hope this clears things up!

 

Therefore, some headphone amp at 1w output should sound better than my power amp at the same 1w output on the HE-6, but none that I have heard so far do. Can you explain why? The differences that you will now explain are what you ignored in this post altogether.

post #13062 of 13320

I use my Hugo with more efficient cans and use my hugo with my Liquid Carbon when using power hungry cans....the hugo sounds great on its won but in some cases the extra power does enhance the sound and enjoyment for me but i do think it is very subjective

post #13063 of 13320
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jozurr View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WCDchee View Post


I agree that a good amp makes headphones sound better.

Now there is a reason why this power thing is so strongly debated. Power is measured in watts, or milliwatts, as we know. Now If we look at something like the he1000, which isn't the easiest headphone to drive, we need something like 1mw to drive it to 90db. That's pretty loud. We need 16mw to drive it to 102db. That's what power means. Now if you're saying that at 35/50 ohms, an amp cannot provide 16mw, then yes, the amp is lacking in power. The power drawn at a specific volume by a specific headphone is the same regardless of the amp. This is something that is often misunderstood. A 100W amplifier does not put out 100W continuously.

That's why there's the contention when you say that more power is needed. More power is not needed, but it doesn't mean that a better amp won't sound better.

Take for example the FiiO e12, that thing has 800mw per channel, but there's no way in hell it drives headphones better than the Hugo despite having more power. Hope this clears things up!

 

Therefore, some headphone amp at 1w output should sound better than my power amp at the same 1w output on the HE-6, but none that I have heard so far do. Can you explain why? The differences that you will now explain are what you ignored in this post altogether.

 

I was waiting for WCDchee's response, but here's my take: There's nothing surprising about the fact that you like one specific amp better than any other with one specific headphone. That doesn't prove in any way that the high power meant to drive speakers is responsible for that or a particularly high sound quality. It's just a particularly good synergy. On the other hand it's possible that high-power amps may have a specific characteristic (compared to headphone amps) since the cost for their internals aren't just used to generate highest sound quality, but also a lot more power than in the case of headphone amps. So roughly spoken an amp with 100 watts per channel at 8 Ω will cost the tenfold of a qualitatively comparable headphone amp with 2 watts per channel at 8 Ω (just a rudimentary speculation).

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlbrach View Post
 

I use my Hugo with more efficient cans and use my hugo with my Liquid Carbon when using power hungry cans....the hugo sounds great on its won but in some cases the extra power does enhance the sound and enjoyment for me but i do think it is very subjective

 

Hi jibrach

 

In the interest of political correctness and objectivity I propose to use «extra amp» instead of «extra power». :wink: 

post #13064 of 13320
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jozurr View Post

Therefore, some headphone amp at 1w output should sound better than my power amp at the same 1w output on the HE-6, but none that I have heard so far do. Can you explain why? The differences that you will now explain are what you ignored in this post altogether.

It is all down to distortion characteristics and distortion numbers. How do you quantify an amp's driving power subjectively? When the bass is tighter? When it has more impact, when the soundstage is larger? All these are subjective things we hear that are vastly affected by distortion characteristics.

If you feel that there is no amp at 1W that drives your he6 better than your current amp, then it can mean a few things. Either your amp is pretty damn good, it suits your preferences best, or subjectively the difference to you is not large enough to hear.

Now, as I have mentioned power is directly related to the volume. That's what power is. Power equals voltage times current. So at a certain volume a headphone will always use the same voltage, same current, and same power regardless of the amp, regardless of whether you're using a 20mw amp, or a 200W mono block. If the amp has inadequate power, you will hear clipping and distortion.

If we want to talk specifically in terms of power and absolute distortion numbers, it's not so muh the number of watts that's important but rather, the quality of the watts that are used.
post #13065 of 13320
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaZZ View Post

I was waiting for WCDchee's response, but here's my take: There's nothing surprising about the fact that you like one specific amp better than any other with one specific headphone. That doesn't prove in any way that the high power meant to drive speakers is responsible for that or a particularly high sound quality. It's just a particularly good synergy. On the other hand it's possible that high-power amps may have a specific characteristic (compared to headphone amps) since the cost for their internals aren't just used to generate highest sound quality, but also a lot more power than in the case of headphone amps. So roughly spoken an amp with 100 watts per channel at 8 Ω will cost the tenfold of a qualitatively comparable headphone amp with 2 watts per channel at 8 Ω (just a rudimentary speculation).


Hi jibrach

In the interest of political correctness and objectivity I propose to use «extra amp» instead of «extra power». wink.gif  

There are actually times when I think it is not wrong to say an amp is lacking in power. With my vorzuge pure 2 for example, it sounds amazing on IEMs, but on headphones like the he560, you can hear the amp drastically changing in character, thin, lifeless, with no body. This is when comparing it to another amp made for bigger headphones. On IEMs, the pure 2 sounded no less powerful in the bass or full in the lower mids, but on headphones it was drastically worse.

The only thing I can attribute this to is that at higher voltages and current levels, the pure 2 doesn't maintain as stable a current, and that distortion numbers go up. I would then refer to this as a 'lack of power'.
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