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post #3586 of 19456
Quote:
Originally Posted by uqart View Post
 


Google and or Apple is not as crazy as it might sound. Both companies love hiring/bying experts and Jason and Mike are as close as you can get  : ) . Apple is already in the Audio "game" and should be expanding. They just don't have the company resources/planning/history to buy like that, that is why Beats was a surprise. Is it a stretch for a Beats headphone amp and dac? Apple's lack of spending their cash is a very big mistake. ( if you couldn't tell I am a big Apple fan).

 

Apple bought Beats when they were already very big.

Most smart companies buy when things are cheap because they realize the potential. Beats was rather close to its peak by then.

post #3587 of 19456
Quote:
Originally Posted by uqart View Post
 


Google and or Apple is not as crazy as it might sound. Both companies love hiring/bying experts and Jason and Mike are as close as you can get  : ) . Apple is already in the Audio "game" and should be expanding. They just don't have the company resources/planning/history to buy like that, that is why Beats was a surprise. Is it a stretch for a Beats headphone amp and dac? Apple's lack of spending their cash is a very big mistake. ( if you couldn't tell I am a big Apple fan).

 


Yes it would be very unlikely for Beats to come out with an amp and/or dac. Here's why: Apple (and Beats) is based on simplicity. An external dac/amp would seem extraneous to most people and make things complex. Might they brand their laptops as having upgraded speakers called "Beats audio" like HP did? Sure. But they'll never come out with a serious amp/dac. If they did, it'd be a cheap add on to boost bass.

post #3588 of 19456

I suspect that future headphones containing a built-in amp (Blue)

and hopefully DAC+Amps built-in one day, will deliver the "simplicity" of better music to more general consumers.

post #3589 of 19456
Quote:
Originally Posted by jexby View Post
 

I suspect that future headphones containing a built-in amp (Blue)

and hopefully DAC+Amps built-in one day, will deliver the "simplicity" of better music to more general consumers.

 

Yeah. There was a bit of a fuss before the release of the 6 series iPhones because some pundit posited the replacement of the 3.5mm headphone jack by the Lightning connector. Wrong, of course, but it's not out of the realm of possibility Apple/Beats might produce a headphone down the line with a built-in DAC that uses the Lightining port. In fact, since the idea was floated I would be surprised if some 3rd party manufacturer isn't working on exactly that right now.

 

If Apple ever do get into the "hi-rez audio" game, audionuts will be screaming to be able to get the data off the device and into their own favourite DAC - necessitating the Lightining connector, since Bluetooth won't cut it. Everyone else will just plug their headphones in and enjoy the music as before.

post #3590 of 19456
Quote:
Originally Posted by valiant66 View Post
 

 

Yeah. There was a bit of a fuss before the release of the 6 series iPhones because some pundit posited the replacement of the 3.5mm headphone jack by the Lightning connector. Wrong, of course, but it's not out of the realm of possibility Apple/Beats might produce a headphone down the line with a built-in DAC that uses the Lightining port. In fact, since the idea was floated I would be surprised if some 3rd party manufacturer isn't working on exactly that right now.

 

If Apple ever do get into the "hi-rez audio" game, audionuts will be screaming to be able to get the data off the device and into their own favourite DAC - necessitating the Lightining connector, since Bluetooth won't cut it. Everyone else will just plug their headphones in and enjoy the music as before.


An article was posted on 9to5mac today stating that Apple is briefing accessory makers about Lightning headphones next week.

 

http://9to5mac.com/2014/11/04/apple-mfi-summit-accessories-homekit-lightning-headphones-game-controllers-ibeacon/


Edited by TheGimp - 11/4/14 at 1:26pm
post #3591 of 19456
Thread Starter 

Hey guys, I've been kinda buried, so there won't be a chapter up tomorrow. However, I'll see if I can get the "Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda" bonus chapter up by the end of the week, looking at some business decisions from a simple trinary perspective. Then back to the regularly scheduled program.

 

However, on the subject of amps and DACs in headphones, I think it is a profoundly stupid idea. Let's see if they do it, and let's see how it plays out, but I think it will be an abject failure, for several reasons:

 

1. It ties the headphone to a specific connector, in this case, the Lightning connector. Don't have new Apple stuff? SOL. Oh yeah, you could do micro USB too, but then you're at 2 SKUs. Have fun with the mistakes on that one, especially when a Lightning connector can be stuffed into a Micro USB port--and ruin it.

2. It subjects the electronics to a profoundly more hostile environment--humidity (sweat), temperature changes, more shocks and vibrations to change things, etc.) Again, have fun with the warranty on that.

3. It gives exactly zero benefit that cannot be accomplished with different means while retaining universality of the headphone (noise cancellation, for example, using its own amplification and local power, or DSP correction done in the phone/computer, if you want to do so.)

4. It draws down the battery of the device it's connected to, so welcome to shorter battery life.

 

However, the big, hairy problems go beyond that, though, and the real crux of it lies in the performance/price equation, and how it will be monumentally broken if we go to headphones with amps and DACs in them. Because, if you're looking at it from an obsolescence point of view, you're now not just dealing with a simple mechanical system (ha) but a complex, mixed-signal, power/DAC/amplification/mechanical system.

 

If any part of it breaks, you throw it away. If any part of it becomes obsolete, you throw it away.

 

There won't be amp or DAC modules to swap out, there won't be upgradability. You'll be buying into a system that will die or become obsolete long before a conventional amp/dac/headphone system. And, you'll be stuck with the amp/DAC in the headphone, period, no way to mix it up and see what you like.

 

Annnddd...the stinger is that when manufacturers are designing complex systems like these hypothetical amp/DAC/headphones, they will know this fact (the obsolescence/breakage problem.) So, do you think they're gonna use great power supplies, amp topologies, and DAC technology? Ahahahaahahhahhaaahaahaa! No. It's immediately gonna be, "Hey, that DAC is $0.17 cheaper than the other, let's use that." And so on, so these devices will be compromised from the start.

 

Let's see where it goes...but I'm expecting it will go nowhere. 

 

(If we end up selling out to Apple or Google and I'm working with them on powered headphones in 2019, then you'll know we were wrong...)

post #3592 of 19456

Nothing like cramming everything in one box and doing it as cheaply as possible. Seems to work for a lot of people, hopefully this niche won't accept it. We are already starting to see the integration, there's a mic company with their own system, bluetooth headphones are being marketed as hi-fi. I'm sure there are others I'm missing. 

 

I for one have no problem with a nice flexible cable tying me to a desktop amp at home and some IEM's or closed cans on the road with a portable amp.


Edited by David Aldrich - 11/4/14 at 5:29pm
post #3593 of 19456

And when the Lightning 2 cables come out, time for new headphones!

 

Haven't seen too many updates to the trusty 1/4" and 1/8" jacks lately.

post #3594 of 19456
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aldrich View Post
 

Nothing like cramming everything in one box and doing it as cheaply as possible. Seems to work for a lot of people, hopefully this niche won't accept it.

We've been doing powered headphones with integrated dacs\amps for years. All wireless headphones have that stuff. And now remember how they sound. Yeah, Lightning headphones will turn out just great.

post #3595 of 19456
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmullins08 View Post
 

And when the Lightning 2 cables come out, time for new headphones!

 

Haven't seen too many updates to the trusty 1/4" and 1/8" jacks lately.


Hopefully Apple keeps up with the reluctance to update their proprietary connector, though it is only V 2 of their mobile device connector. As for compact audio connectors I am all for ditching notoriously failure prone 3.5mm and short circuiting 6.35mm phone connectors in favor of XLR, mini XLR, Lemo (at a huge price increase unfortunately) or a handful of other easy to use NON shorting, ground first push to connect connectors.

post #3596 of 19456

They absolutely did need to move on from the dock connector.  Now its just a matter of how long before the next great connector comes out and they need to do it again.

post #3597 of 19456

While I agree that it's stupid to have a DAC/AMP in a headphone, we're all forgetting something: most people know nothing about audio and won't care. They'll read the marketing and think it's better and buy it.

post #3598 of 19456

Oh Dear Good Sir Jason ,

 

How very right you are , me thinks .  

   Still , the Retailers would sell Billions of em over the Xmas Season .  Garage Sales are filled with all manner of Household Goods of dubious qualities , all sold by Price Driven marketing plans , all saved and stored in drawers , batteries leaking out if they have batteries ( which seems a common denominator to clever gizmos ) .  

 Headphones are a Hot Item today , we can expect all manner of crappy versions of what you are describing as a bad idea , Walmart , Kmart , Best Buy and all the others would love to have something like it , for $79 & 70 points  , of course made in China , where else ?

  I hope Schiit doesn't create such a device to accompany your range of $100 electronic devices , I don't think you will , I don't see you stooping this low , you're seeming to offer "value for money" rather than "crap for money" despite your company name .

Keep up the good work , you're giving **** a good name !  

 

Tony in Michigan

 

ps. please send-in Professor Mike with a Yggy update , I'm getting itchy .   

post #3599 of 19456
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonykaz View Post
 

ps. please send-in Professor Mike with a Yggy update , I'm getting itchy .   

 

Mike posted in the other thread:

 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/667711/new-schiit-ragnarok-and-yggdrasil/3510#post_11019021

post #3600 of 19456
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy205100 View Post
 

While I agree that it's stupid to have a DAC/AMP in a headphone, we're all forgetting something: most people know nothing about audio and won't care. They'll read the marketing and think it's better and buy it.

 

Bingo!  that was my point specifying "consumers" becoming aware of advances in audio quality due to these "fancy things" called DAC and Amps.

not proposing that any of us would be the target audience, or satisfied with dac+amp+headphone bundled products.

 

doesn't anyone think that some of those consumers first exposed to hypothetical cheap-o-built-in-dac-amp-headphones, then become newbies here?

only to eventually be gobbling up Lyr 2 and planar headphones for their end-game desktop config?

 

 

it's the bait.

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