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post #1366 of 1943
^ Interesting discussion, I look forward to more if baldr chooses to take part.

OTOH, Yggy looks set to be very reasonably priced (compared to 'top' DACs) and claims bit-perfectness via a unique point of difference in its approach. What's not to like, so long as it sounds good? And should we not subject other DAC designers to similarly probing questions?
post #1367 of 1943

I write this not to engage anyone – I am not interested in a debate. I only write this as testament to experience. With respect to digital filters, it is important to note that there are two separate aspects which may cause confusion to some.

 

One aspect is the calculation of the coefficients used in the filter program itself – derivation. The other is the implementation of said filter in whatever environment (Purchased digital filter chip, or as a part of a reduced bit DAC or ADC chip). In our case a Schiit written software program runs in a special purpose DSP chip – execution.

 

Now when the derived filter is running – whether it is optimized for frequency domain, low-pass, high-pass, bandpass, or in our case time and frequency domain that execution is indeed closed form.

 

The derivation is quite another matter. While researching digital filter derivation before I founded Theta Digital, I found that all frequency domain filters were based upon non closed form math and successive approximations. I looked at many of them none were completely solvable in mathematics. The time domain optimization that Schiit uses was originally posited by Bell Telephone Labs with a publication date of 1917. This is well before there were computers to implement them. This led to a long journey which ended up with the tools to derive the coefficients that generate a filter which not only has closed form solvable math, but which also preserves all of the original samples. I have spent much time researching digital filters, and I am confident that this is the only filter like this. Period. I may now be from a small town, but I have been to county fairs and have actually seen three story buildings

 

Now, why do this?? It is a lot of work. Five years of my life. Simple. It sounds better. Almost all of the high priced competition uses chips bought from a variety of manufacturers which implement the digital filters. They come with instruction booklets which show you how to hook them up. It's a lot like buying a frozen food entree and reading the side of the box.

 

I tire of the arguments that since the record side may not be ideal so why bother with good playback. Huh? Let me go back a paragraph. It sounds better! If you agree, then get one. If you don't, then get something else. I have been in this business long enough to know that God could personally appear to me and tell me how to build the perfect audio device and still there will be people who do not like it. There are those obsessed with particular aspects of technology, be they polypropylene capacitors, non-inductive wirewound resistors, FET-Input opamps, Current Feedback opamps, IIR filters, sinc filters, VCXO's, tubes, etc. etc. I am sure I could lose some arguments with some proponents of some technologies.

 

That said, I have probably produced, designed, and sold more DACs to more people than any other living person. All that is important to me is producing technologically sound products that makes people have fun with music. If you are the guy with a music system that cost more than your car and you only listen to four recordings, all of which you hate because they are not perfect, look elsewhere, please. If you want to debate technology, then do yourself, as well as the poor people who surround you a favor - get out of talking and into action and build something.

post #1368 of 1943
^ Thanks. Entertaining and informative. I for one am reassured you have seen three story buildings biggrin.gif

And looking forward to Yggy's release beerchug.gif
post #1369 of 1943
Wow. Mike the way you go about designing DACs is really impressive, I'd probably be even more impressed if I understood more about electronics. I've never heard a Schiit DAC, but your posts definitely make me want to listen to the Bifrost smily_headphones1.gif.
post #1370 of 1943

It will be my honor and privilege to purchase this statement DAC and AMP.

"This is gunna be so coool… vigorously rubbing his hands together…" (name that movie quote!)

 

And what with all of this newly minted sig line and quotable quote material, this has got to be the bargain of the century…  :thumb

 

now where is that golf clap smilie? :atsmile:

 

And we ARE witnessing history being made and we all get to be carried along for the ride to boot.  :thumb  :thumb

 

JJ  

ps I HAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahahaha'd  -  a lot  -  and that was just the 1st pass…  :atsmile:

post #1371 of 1943
Quote:
Originally Posted by AiDee View Post

^ Thanks. Entertaining and informative. I for one am reassured you have seen three story buildings biggrin.gif

And looking forward to Yggy's release beerchug.gif

Nicely done, sir.
post #1372 of 1943
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjen View Post

It will be my honor and privilege to purchase this statement DAC and AMP.
"This is gunna be so coool… vigorously rubbing his hands together…" (name that movie quote!)

And what with all of this newly minted sig line and quotable quote material, this has got to be the bargain of the century…  :thumb

now where is that golf clap smilie? atsmile.gif

And we ARE witnessing history being made and we all get to be carried along for the ride to boot.  :thumb  :thumb

JJ  
ps I HAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahahaha'd  -  a lot  -  and that was just the 1st pass…  atsmile.gif

TGIF eh, JJ? 😜
post #1373 of 1943

Expectations are as high as ever, really hoping Yggy does not disappoint.

post #1374 of 1943
But for those of us without a background in DSP design, why is this filter better? Does it have better jitter rejection? After all this I still don't understand what advantage this bit perfect filter represents.
post #1375 of 1943
Quote:
Originally Posted by drez View Post

But for those of us without a background in DSP design, why is this filter better? Does it have better jitter rejection? After all this I still don't understand what advantage this bit perfect filter represents.
My non-technical response would be that it is Mike's conviction and conclusion that this filter makes the music sound better. This is IMO of course.
post #1376 of 1943

What I've gathered is that on top of it being mathematically and theoretically "correct" where the data being presented to the device isn't being "adulterated" down the chain, it also sounds better to them (of course with all the YMMV disclaimers). I know I'm beating a dead horse but try it for yourself, if you like it keep it, if not return it.

 

I personally enjoy the tube sound even though it technically is "incorrect" since it introduces distortion, but it sounds good to me so whatever. So the short of it is we can speculate all we want, but we'll never know how it sounds until we hear it ourselves. I just think it's cool they're trying a different approach with the current market flooded by essentially different "flavors" of the same design.

post #1377 of 1943

As a fan of more light hearted conversation in this thread. How about them 0.4mm header inter board connector reworked with a soldering iron. At least they don't tombstone.

 

post #1378 of 1943
Quote:
Originally Posted by kothganesh View Post

My non-technical response would be that it is Mike's conviction and conclusion that this filter makes the music sound better. This is IMO of course.

I read that. That's cool and all but anyone can claim anything sounds better, and all I have read so far is contrarian talk about SD being bad, ASRC being evil, that people with expensive hifi systems are not the target market, mix in some cable skeptic humor etc. No talk of actual performance benefits over conventional optios. Call me unconvinced.

What irritates me is that this anti SD, anti ASRC idea will probably spread and suddenly everone will decide that these technologies are to blame for whatever they subjectively disliked in any particular DAC without any solid argument of causal link.
post #1379 of 1943

If I was in the market for a more expensive DAC, Mike's comments would have just sold me on one.

post #1380 of 1943
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxper View Post
 

Expectations are as high as ever, really hoping Yggy does not disappoint.

Is your wallet jittering in anticipation?

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