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Hifiman HE-400i and HE-560: From CES to Pre-Launch - Page 113

post #1681 of 3090
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamHiFiMAN View Post
 

Btw, the new headband is really good. I promise you guys that the comfortable level comparing to the old design is day and night. Almost everyone who has tried HM-560 or HM-400i complemented the new headband. 

 

Surprised to see a misleading statement like that coming from a rep.  Everybody in this thread keeps associating the improved comfort to the headband instead of the reduced weight.  I'm not saying this to puff out my chest, and I'm not saying this to TeamHiFiMAN (odds are, s/he has had a chance with it), but if one has never extensively auditioned an HE-4, then s/he clearly would have no way of knowing what the new suspension headband contributes to the extended comfort experience of a ~350g HiFiMAN planar.  [That's clear, right?]  At 350g, or maybe now 340g(?), you're talking about a planar that weighs less than a Beyer Tesla...  Of course it's going to be significantly more comfortable than the 500, 6, any Audeze model, or even the 400...  :rolleyes:

 

Can't remember who it was, but one of the reps already came right out and said it earlier - the actual design purpose of switching to suspension was/is to sell more headphones to people with wider heads.  That's it.  But now that everybody already endorsed the supposed comfort benefits of the suspension style, even with a pre-prod re-work, we still lose what was already IMO a really great headband for a 350g headphone.  Unnecessary.  Maybe even a little dumb.

 

It also seems pretty transparent at this point that HiFiMAN wanted to use the switch as an opportunity to improve the lackluster branding, mounting that huge "H" on the side.  Annoying, yeah... but whatever, can't blame them too much.  Easy to see that this <<http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/CES2014_HiFiMan.jpg>> is better for competing in situations like this <<http://www.razordogaudio.com/pages/brands>>.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by modulor View Post
 

Also remember what was seen at CES and other demos were still mostly in prototype stage.  I recall reading that they were still making a few changes to the headband and other styling mostly, less so with tuning (HE-560 tuning being complete and HE-400i being tweaked still but mostly complete).  So the overall styling may change a bit with the release models but he principle design will remain the same with the suspension band of course due to positive feedback.  The logo is a bit big IMO, I think the full company logo in small size would look nicer, or perhaps the model on the sides and the company logo across the top of the headband.  Either way, these things are the least of my worries :p

 

I was playing catch-up last night on my phone and couldn't believe it took several pages of back-and-forthing from longtime thread followers for somebody to finally point this out.  If people can't remember what they read 20 pages ago in the thread, then how reliable are their short-term recollections of the headphone SQ going to be once these start popping up at meets?...

 

Regardless, couldn't have come up with a better summary comment myself.  There are going to be missteps, but in the end, both models are going to at least be successful - any HE-4 owner would agree.


Edited by raspiguy - 2/12/14 at 3:16pm
post #1682 of 3090
Quote:
Originally Posted by raspiguy View Post
 

 

Surprised to see a misleading statement like that coming from a rep.  Everybody in this thread keeps associating the improved comfort to the headband instead of the reduced weight.  I'm not saying this to puff out my chest, and I'm not saying this to TeamHiFiMAN (odds are, s/he has had a chance with it), but if one has never extensively auditioned an HE-4, then s/he clearly would have no way of knowing what the new suspension headband contributes to the extended comfort experience of a ~350g HiFiMAN planar.  [That's clear, right?]  At 350g, or maybe now 340g(?), you're talking about a planar that weighs less than a Beyer Tesla...  Of course it's going to be significantly more comfortable than the 500, 6, any Audeze model, or even the 400...  :rolleyes:

 

Can't remember who it was, but one of the reps already came right out and said it earlier - the actual design purpose of switching to suspension was/is to sell more headphones to people with wider heads.  That's it.  But now that everybody already endorsed the supposed comfort benefits of the suspension style, even with a pre-prod re-work, we still lose what was already IMO a really great headband for a 350g headphone.  Unnecessary.  Maybe even a little dumb.

 

It also seems pretty transparent at this point that HiFiMAN wanted to use the switch as an opportunity to improve the lackluster branding, mounting that huge "H" on the side.  Annoying, yeah... but whatever, can't blame them too much.  Easy to see that this <<http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/CES2014_HiFiMan.jpg>> is better for competing in situations like this <<http://www.razordogaudio.com/pages/brands>>.

 

 

I was playing catch-up last night on my phone and couldn't believe it took several pages of back-and-forthing from longtime thread followers for somebody to finally point this out.  If people can't remember what they read 20 pages ago in the thread, then how reliable are their short-term recollections of the headphone SQ going to be once these start popping up at meets?...

 

Regardless, couldn't have come up with a better summary comment myself.  There are going to be missteps, but in the end, both models are going to at least be successful - any HE-4 owner would agree.

You seem to be missing the fact that many of us do have extensive experience with suspension style headbands on other headphones.  At least one member has commented on their experience with the suspension headband on the Abyss that seems to decrease the perception of it's otherwise heavy weight.  Additionally, comfort due to weight reduction has been mentioned plenty already and is kind of a given.  People are mostly just repeating and discussing what has already been said until more sound impressions come out.

post #1683 of 3090

I can't believe I just read that post.

post #1684 of 3090
Quote:
Originally Posted by q2klepto View Post
 

 

This thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSkool View Post
 

:popcorn:

 

That would be the right thing to do, but I wouldn't hold out any hope for a high-end audio company to give people reasons not to buy new models.  Your most realistic bet is to plan on doing a (destructive) mod swapping a headband with somebody that wants the old version on the new cups.  Your 1-year 400/500 warranty will probably be nearly expired by then anyway.

post #1685 of 3090
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clemmaster View Post


What were you using before?

I didn't notice any huge improvement from SA-31 to EF-6 with the HE-5LE, to the point where I'm actually considering getting the SA-31 back for them (special synergy with Hifimen headphones, that the EF-6 lacks).

With the HE-6, the story is quite different.

Audio-GD NFB 11.32.

post #1686 of 3090
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMRaven View Post
 

 

I highly doubt this.  HE-400 has TOO MUCH treble and presence in the air region.  Might you be mistaking the lower treble and uppermidrange for the treble?

nope.  while the 400 does have a treble peak which can be a little annoying to some, I'm talking about the effortless smooth edgeless airy treble range, that it doesn't have.

 

the honkey thing it does to vocals may actually not be connected to the treble I'm talking about.  I probably misspoke about that.  Thats a different issue.

post #1687 of 3090
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWahl View Post
 

You seem to be missing the fact that many of us do have extensive experience with suspension style headbands on other headphones.  At least one member has commented on their experience with the suspension headband on the Abyss that seems to decrease the perception of it's otherwise heavy weight.  Additionally, comfort due to weight reduction has been mentioned plenty already and is kind of a given.  People are mostly just repeating and discussing what has already been said until more sound impressions come out.

Well, you seem to be missing my main point.  If you reduce the weight down to something at or below the normal upper bound for a dynamic hp at the same time you add a suspension headband, then "seeming to decrease the perception" of weight is irrelevant if you no longer have 'otherwise heavy weight'.

 

I didn't say that suspension designs don't work - I'm just saying it wasn't necessary to eliminate an already good-looking. solid, versatile headband if comfort really was the main driver, as people continue to repeat.

post #1688 of 3090
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keithpgdrb View Post
 

nope.  while the 400 does have a treble peak which can be a little annoying to some, I'm talking about the effortless smooth edgeless airy treble range, that it doesn't have.

 

the honkey thing it does to vocals may actually not be connected to the treble I'm talking about.  I probably misspoke about that.  Thats a different issue.

 

 

What is this effortless, smooth, edgeless airy treble range that you speak of?  While the HE-400's treble isn't edgeless on stock form without EQ or mods, I definitely don't see it lacking any treble in the air range.  If your definition of the air range is the same as mine-- that being treble from 12khz to 16khz and beyond-- then yes, the HE-400 has plenty of presence in that region.

 

We can talk about subjective qualities all we want, but subjective qualities are different than having objectively enough or not enough presence in a certain frequency region.

post #1689 of 3090
Quote:
Originally Posted by raspiguy View Post
 

Well, you seem to be missing my main point.  If you reduce the weight down to something at or below the normal upper bound for a dynamic hp at the same time you add a suspension headband, then "seeming to decrease the perception" of weight is irrelevant if you no longer have 'otherwise heavy weight'.

 

I didn't say that suspension designs don't work - I'm just saying it wasn't necessary to eliminate an already good-looking. solid, versatile headband if comfort really was the main driver, as people continue to repeat.

Thanks for clarifying, I suppose I should too.  There are other comfort advantages to a suspension design besides decreasing perceived weight, mostly a headband that better conforms to the unique curvature of each persons different heads.  Granted, you can bend and disfigure the old headband to attempt to shape to your head but it is a bit of pain IMO and mars the aesthetics IMO.  And I guess it just boils down to individual preference, obviously I personally very much like the new headband design as I feel it appears to improve upon the poorer ergonomics of the older one, regardless of weight.

 

Also in regard to your previous post:

 

This is just my opinion so don't take it too personally but the tone comes off a bit judgemental or rather overly skeptical of Hifiman.  I promise you I'm just as much as a "fight the man"/holding big businesses accountable type of person, but I can assure you Hifiman are not the "bad guys" in this case.  I'm not saying we should totally ignore any missteps and let anything fly, but they are a small business and for the most part, one thing that's being done right in the headphone industry.  I'm not a fanboy by any means but we do need that effective value competition in this already inflated industry.   I fully encourage directing that fervor towards the likes of Meridian, Harman, Sennheiser, etc.  

post #1690 of 3090
Well the he-400 might have some kind of treble air.. But it comes at a cost.. Not smooth or edgeless, more like peaky and annoying IMO. Squeezing air without edginess and peakiness out of planars is a hard thing to do, I have been told.
post #1691 of 3090
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMRaven View Post
 

 

 

What is this effortless, smooth, edgeless airy treble range that you speak of?  While the HE-400's treble isn't edgeless on stock form without EQ or mods, I definitely don't see it lacking any treble in the air range.  If your definition of the air range is the same as mine-- that being treble from 12khz to 16khz and beyond-- then yes, the HE-400 has plenty of presence in that region.

 

We can talk about subjective qualities all we want, but subjective qualities are different than having objectively enough or not enough presence in a certain frequency region.

I use my electrostatic cans as a reference for treble presentation.

post #1692 of 3090
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMRaven View Post
 

I can't believe I just read that post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JWahl View Post
 

This is just my opinion so don't take it too personally but the tone comes off a bit judgemental or rather overly skeptical of Hifiman.  I promise you I'm just as much as a "fight the man"/holding big businesses accountable type of person, but I can assure you Hifiman are not the "bad guys" in this case.  I'm not saying we should totally ignore any missteps and let anything fly, but they are a small business and for the most part, one thing that's being done right in the headphone industry.  I'm not a fanboy by any means but we do need that effective value competition in this already inflated industry.   I fully encourage directing that fervor towards the likes of Meridian, Harman, Sennheiser, etc.  

If it came off the wrong way, then I apologize.  If the very end of my first post didn't make it clear, I'm already a huge HiFiMAN fan, it's just I've been subscribed to this for a while holding out that something useful is going to be shared by the reps, and it's a little frustrating getting spammed with misinformation, particularly when it's piling on straight from the horse's mouth.  Gave it a day before posting to see if anything good would come of it, but unfortunately not.  Here one of their HE-500 customers asks them a pretty plain & simple on-topic question about the parts compatibility after they briefly pop up to fuel the hype, and instead of saying something, anything ("we'll try", "sorry, we aren't able to comment on that at this time", etc.), it's just crickets.  Just doesn't seem like this lead-up is being handled all that well, and maybe it bothers me precisely because I already thought somewhat highly of the company.

post #1693 of 3090
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keithpgdrb View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMRaven View Post
 

 

 

What is this effortless, smooth, edgeless airy treble range that you speak of?  While the HE-400's treble isn't edgeless on stock form without EQ or mods, I definitely don't see it lacking any treble in the air range.  If your definition of the air range is the same as mine-- that being treble from 12khz to 16khz and beyond-- then yes, the HE-400 has plenty of presence in that region.

 

We can talk about subjective qualities all we want, but subjective qualities are different than having objectively enough or not enough presence in a certain frequency region.

I use my electrostatic cans as a reference for treble presentation.

Indeed :beerchug:

post #1694 of 3090
Quote:
Originally Posted by raspiguy View Post
 

If it came off the wrong way, then I apologize.  If the very end of my first post didn't make it clear, I'm already a huge HiFiMAN fan, it's just I've been subscribed to this for a while holding out that something useful is going to be shared by the reps, and it's a little frustrating getting spammed with misinformation, particularly when it's piling on straight from the horse's mouth.  Gave it a day before posting to see if anything good would come of it, but unfortunately not.  Here one of their HE-500 customers asks them a pretty plain & simple on-topic question about the parts compatibility after they briefly pop up to fuel the hype, and instead of saying something, anything ("we'll try", "sorry, we aren't able to comment on that at this time", etc.), it's just crickets.  Just doesn't seem like this lead-up is being handled all that well, and maybe it bothers me precisely because I already thought somewhat highly of the company.

Fair enough, and that makes sense.  Thanks for not coming back defensively.  To be fair though, he only waited about a day before quoting himself, unless he has asked it earlier which I may have missed.  Plus alot of them may still be on vacation from the Chinese new year maybe?  Not sure about the headband retrofit, but they did mention the new pads can be.

post #1695 of 3090
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerg View Post
 

Audio-GD NFB 11.32.

Fairly powerful already, but obviously not as refined as a $1699 standalone amp.

 

I got the NFB-15.32 for my dad's HE-4. While it is already quite good and an improvement in scale over the M-Stage, it is not really comparable to the SA-31.

 

The SA-31 is - in my experience - the sweet spot (Performance/Price) for any Hifiman < HE-6. A true bargain...

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