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Buying the Sennheiser HD700 or HD800. HELP - Page 3

post #31 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by StubKidDtd2512 View Post
 

 

Seriously, if you like the HD598s' wide soundstage then you will be very disappointed with the HD600s as well as the HD650; but their bass may be enough for you. I owned both the HD600s and HD650s at the same time almost 2 years ago so I'm pretty sure about that. And the HD800s' bass is far from weak especially when being compared with the HD598s unless you are trying to use them with an iPod or some cheap portable amps, because these high impedance headphones need serious amping.

 

To be honest, I've owned a lot of Sennheiser headphones from the cheap earbuds MX470s to the current flagship HD800s so I think the only Sennheiser headphones which can meet your requirements are the HD800s because of these following reasons:

 

- They are so fast that they can reveal all minor details in fast-paced music like rap and hip hop.

 

- Their clarity is only second to that of electrostatic headphones like the SR-007s or SR-009s

 

- They have the most well-defined type of bass, compared with any other Sennheiser headphones.

 

- They have the widest sound stage and the best imaging of any current production dynamic headphones (which is crucial for gaming of course; I play CS:GO too).

 

Don't even bother to find these characteristics in the HD600s and HD650s. The HD700s are superior to these 2 but.......

 

But like I said, the HD800s require lots of voltage because they have very high impedance; so you should consider buying an amp if you're ready to spoil your ears with the HD800s.

 

And btw I prefer using the LCD-2s when playing CS. :D 

The HD700's are not superior to either the HD600 or HD650, They have too much treble emphasis, to the point of being fatiquing. The HD800's do not require all that much voltage to drive as they are more sensitive than either the HD600's or HD650's. They are sensitive at102 db/mW so 63 mW or 4,35 V RMS will drive them to the threshold of pain (120 db SPL). A FiiO E12 portable amp will drive them way past that. There is way too much myth floating around the Internet. I seriously doubt that the soundstage of the HD600 or HD650 would be dissapointing to a HD598 owner. I have an HD558 with the black foam mod (so very similar to the HD598, same transducer) and the HD600 is not blown away by them. I have the HD600's as well.

I will say that the HD800 is an awesome set of cans.

post #32 of 59
Im afraid u misunderstood my points here

1. 2 months ago i had a chance to listen to a 700s/hdvd800 setup. After 1 hour of listening i concluded that despite having the ugly treble peak, the 700s' sound stage is noticeably wider and deeper than the 600s/650s. They are also a notch better than the lower models in term of clarity and imaging. Of course ymmv.

2. What high impedance headphones need more is voltage but not current to avoid clipping and reduce distortion as well. Try pairing the 800s with a small portable amp like the jds c5 then compare them with an 800s/beta22 (or gs-x or other powerful desktop amps setup), u will understand what i meant. For another example, the srm-323s can make my ears bleed when using the 009s @ 12 o'clock position but mid and treble will totally become smeared. The 800s unfortunately happen to be very amp picky because they're so revealing that they can easily point out strengths and weaknesses of what they're being plugged into. So besides caring only about how much power an amp can deliver at certain levels, we should also take other things like voltage swing, output impedance, headroom, etc. into account.

3. I only said that the OP who prefers spacious sound stage like the 598s will probably be disappointed with the 600s/650s, because their sound stages are never considered to be wide despite being open cans.

Hope this clarifies my early post.

To OP: the 650s actually may be the end game for u because not many people can put up with the 700s' treble peak. smily_headphones1.gif
Edited by StubKidDtd2512 - 12/28/13 at 5:02pm
post #33 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by StubKidDtd2512 View Post

Im afraid u misunderstood my points here

1. 2 months ago i had a chance to listen to a 700s/hdvd800 setup. After 1 hour of listening i concluded that despite having the ugly treble peak, the 700s' sound stage is noticeably wider and deeper than the 600s/650s. They are also a notch better than the lower models in term of clarity and imaging. Of course ymmv.

2. What high impedance headphones need more is voltage but not current to avoid clipping and reduce distortion as well. Try pairing the 800s with a small portable amp like the jds c5 then compare them with an 800s/beta22 (or gs-x or other powerful desktop amps setup), u will understand what i meant. For another example, the srm-323s can make my ears bleed when using the 009s @ 12 o'clock position but mid and treble will totally become smeared. The 800s unfortunately happen to be very amp picky because they're so revealing that they can easily point out strengths and weaknesses of what they're being plugged into. So besides caring only about how much power an amp can deliver at certain levels, we should also take other things like voltage swing, output impedance, headroom, etc. into account.

3. I only said that the OP who prefers spacious sound stage like the 598s will probably be disappointed with the 600s/650s, because their sound stages are never considered to be wide despite being open cans.

Hope this clarifies my early post.

To OP: the 650s actually may be the end game for u because not many people can put up with the 700s' treble peak. smily_headphones1.gif

The amount of voltage required is based upon the sensitivity rating (in mW) and the impedance. The Voltage swing is directly related to the power level and impedance, the math/engineering is very simple. I already calculated that "They are sensitive at 102 db/mW so 63 mW or 4.35 V RMS will drive them to the threshold of pain (120 db SPL)." So a mere 4.35 V will cause you pain and that's not much voltage. All headphones require power, as you increase the impedance a higher voltage and lower current are required to achieve the same level of power. It is the sensitivity that determines the power level and the HD800's are nice and sensitive thus do not need as much voltage to reach the power level to roast ones ears. There is much myth about how much voltage these cans need. The HD600 and HD650 requires more power and thus more voltage to reach the same loudness levels as the more efficient HD800. I've A/B compared all three with my own ears and this is very true as are Sennheiser's specs. You can see the numbers below. Strange how myth prevails. Must have something to due with my signature.:D 

 

Model

Sensitivity dB/mW

mW for

120dB SPL

Voltage for 120db SPL

HD600

97

199.53

7.74

HD650

98

158.49

6.86

HD800

102

63.10

4.35

post #34 of 59
Thread Starter 

I will be buying the magni + modi that is for sure ! 


To be honest ID rather have a wider soundstage, and clarity then more bass.

For music, I will just get the ATH m50 for my bass needs xD. (I can get them very cheap) 



 

post #35 of 59
Thread Starter 

So I guess I have to Test the HD650, or the HD700, and find out which One I like. 

post #36 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post
 

The amount of voltage required is based upon the sensitivity rating (in mW) and the impedance. The Voltage swing is directly related to the power level and impedance, the math/engineering is very simple. I already calculated that "They are sensitive at 102 db/mW so 63 mW or 4.35 V RMS will drive them to the threshold of pain (120 db SPL)." So a mere 4.35 V will cause you pain and that's not much voltage. All headphones require power, as you increase the impedance a higher voltage and lower current are required to achieve the same level of power. It is the sensitivity that determines the power level and the HD800's are nice and sensitive thus do not need as much voltage to reach the power level to roast ones ears. There is much myth about how much voltage these cans need. The HD600 and HD650 requires more power and thus more voltage to reach the same loudness levels as the more efficient HD800. I've A/B compared all three with my own ears and this is very true as are Sennheiser's specs. You can see the numbers below. Strange how myth prevails. Must have something to due with my signature.:D 

 

Model

Sensitivity dB/mW

mW for

120dB SPL

Voltage for 120db SPL

HD600

97

199.53

7.74

HD650

98

158.49

6.86

HD800

102

63.10

4.35

 

OK now I really think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. Maybe the reason is because English is not my mother tongue so I'm very sorry if I couldn't clarify myself.

 

I do understand that the HD800s are more easily to be driven than the HD600s or HD650s in term of loudness. However what I've been telling you is not that it's hard to make the HD800s sound louder. Even the lowly C5 portable amp at maximum volume level is enough for the HD800s to sound as if they're a pair of computer speakers. But will the HD800s will sound best just from the C5? Absolutely no. What you've kept calling the myth here is that power only plays a small part in the big picture. By your logic, at a certain power level put into the HD800s, or to put it in another words, at a certain loudness level, they must sound exactly the same regardless of what amplifier they are plugged into; and we now may call high-end equipment a joke.

 

Anw I think we should really give this thread back to the OP. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Keelo117 View Post
 

So I guess I have to Test the HD650, or the HD700, and find out which One I like. 

Yes, that's the right move because we can only help you narrow down the choice you have to make. However judging from what you want it will not be a surprise if you like the 700s. 2 of my friends who are also into this hobby do like that kind of treble, just so you know. :D 

post #37 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by StubKidDtd2512 View Post
 

 

OK now I really think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. Maybe the reason is because English is not my mother tongue so I'm very sorry if I couldn't clarify myself.

 

I do understand that the HD800s are more easily to be driven than the HD600s or HD650s in term of loudness. However what I've been telling you is not that it's hard to make the HD800s sound louder. Even the lowly C5 portable amp at maximum volume level is enough for the HD800s to sound as if they're a pair of computer speakers. But will the HD800s will sound best just from the C5? Absolutely no. What you've kept calling the myth here is that power only plays a small part in the big picture. By your logic, at a certain power level put into the HD800s, or to put it in another words, at a certain loudness level, they must sound exactly the same regardless of what amplifier they are plugged into; and we now may call high-end equipment a joke.

 

Anw I think we should really give this thread back to the OP. :rolleyes:

Yes, that's the right move because we can only help you narrow down the choice you have to make. However judging from what you want it will not be a surprise if you like the 700s. 2 of my friends who are also into this hobby do like that kind of treble, just so you know. :D 

If the distortion levels are lower than a human's ability to perceive (which is not hard to achieve), the damping ratio is proper, the frequency response is flat and the driving power is proper, discounting imagination, they will sound the same. What will make them sound different, spell it out? Don't be vague or quote someoneelse's nonsense, give us real reasons. This is the year 2013 (for another 2 days), there is technology and engineering that makes it possible to have these gadgets, so tell us which part of this makes the difference?

post #38 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post
 

The amount of voltage required is based upon the sensitivity rating (in mW) and the impedance. The Voltage swing is directly related to the power level and impedance, the math/engineering is very simple. I already calculated that "They are sensitive at 102 db/mW so 63 mW or 4.35 V RMS will drive them to the threshold of pain (120 db SPL)." So a mere 4.35 V will cause you pain and that's not much voltage. All headphones require power, as you increase the impedance a higher voltage and lower current are required to achieve the same level of power. It is the sensitivity that determines the power level and the HD800's are nice and sensitive thus do not need as much voltage to reach the power level to roast ones ears. There is much myth about how much voltage these cans need. The HD600 and HD650 requires more power and thus more voltage to reach the same loudness levels as the more efficient HD800. I've A/B compared all three with my own ears and this is very true as are Sennheiser's specs. You can see the numbers below. Strange how myth prevails. Must have something to due with my signature.:D 

 

Model

Sensitivity dB/mW

mW for

120dB SPL

Voltage for 120db SPL

HD600

97

199.53

7.74

HD650

98

158.49

6.86

HD800

102

63.10

4.35

 

StanD,

 

To my mind you are making a small mistake:

 

Both HD650 and HD800 have the same sensitivity 102dB/1V, not 1mW (sources: HD650, HD800)

So to give both of them 102dB you will need 3,33mW or 1V into 300 Ohm. (Keelo117, make sure the amp's power corresponds to the headphone impedance!)

To give it 120dB (I feel sorry for your ears if you do, to my mind usual comfortable volume is 94dB) you will need 210mW and 7,94V again into 300 Ohm.

 

Bear in mind, that the max supplied power is 500mW into 300 (same sources), which will eventually give you 123,8dB just before you blow up the headphones.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keelo117 View Post
 

So I guess I have to Test the HD650, or the HD700, and find out which One I like. 

 

Keelo117,

 

If you have such an opportunity, go for it (test them)!


Edited by U6astik - 12/29/13 at 9:56am
post #39 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post
 

If the distortion levels are lower than a human's ability to perceive (which is not hard to achieve), the damping ratio is proper, the frequency response is flat and the driving power is proper, discounting imagination, they will sound the same. What will make them sound different, spell it out? Don't be vague or quote someoneelse's nonsense, give us real reasons. This is the year 2013 (for another 2 days), there is technology and engineering that makes it possible to have these gadgets, so tell us which part of this makes the difference?

 

Thank you for already giving the answer, because my assumption was only that:

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by StubKidDtd2512 View Post
 

 

at a certain power level put into the HD800s, or to put it in other words, at a certain loudness level

I think now you understand what I meant. I just wanted to help you to answer why there is the myth about the HD800s being very picky about amps. Why do you think people spend thousands of dollars for expensive amps such as Beta22, GS-X, Eddie Current Balancing Act, etc. to feed the HD800s when the Fiio E9 is more than enough to blow up your ears? Are they simply too crazy or is there something else behind this?

 

I also apologize if I was being too vague to you, so please don't be mad at me and have a nice day!


Edited by StubKidDtd2512 - 12/29/13 at 10:59am
post #40 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by U6astik View Post
 

 

StanD,

 

To my mind you are making a small mistake:

 

Both HD650 and HD800 have the same sensitivity 102dB/1V, not 1mW (sources: HD650, HD800)

So to give both of them 102dB you will need 3,33mW or 1V into 300 Ohm. (Keelo117, make sure the amp's power corresponds to the headphone impedance!)

To give it 120dB (I feel sorry for your ears if you do, to my mind usual comfortable volume is 94dB) you will need 210mW and 7,94V again into 300 Ohm.

 

Bear in mind, that the max supplied power is 500mW into 300 (same sources), which will eventually give you 123,8dB just before you blow up the headphones.

 

 

Keelo117,

 

If you have such an opportunity, go for it (test them)!

Thanks for the leg work, I got the my sensitivity ratings from the FiiO website where they list values for a lot of headphones. I'll not use their site again and in the future spend extra time hunting down the numbers right off the product sheets. Ends up that the HD600 is even more sensitive at 112 db at 1V. I listen a bit on the loud side, but never 120 dB.

As far as some people spending a tidy sum on amps, IMO much of this is overkill. As far as FR goes, flat is easy to achieve. As far as THD, that's also easy to achieve, Sowhen people get excited about the one amp having better treble response, that's just imagination. If the amp can drive the cans and the amp's impedance is low enough then the bass will be the same. The thing to look for is Intermodulation Distortion (IM) and transient distortions like TIMD. These are usually not spec's, although Schiit does and their numbers are good. These days it is not hard to design an SS AMp with low IM and TIMD. I feel that sexy packaging and imagination can go a long way to gaining favor, the rest is the choir joining in.

post #41 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by StubKidDtd2512 View Post
 

I think now you understand what I meant. I just wanted to help you to answer why there is the myth about the HD800s being very picky about amps. Why do you think people spend thousands of dollars for expensive amps such as Beta22, GS-X, Eddie Current Balancing Act, etc. to feed the HD800s when the Fiio E9 is more than enough to blow up your ears? Are they simply too crazy or is there something else behind this?

 

I also apologize if I was being too vague to you, so please don't be mad at me and have a nice day!

IMO if all the specs that I previously mentioned (FR, driv/impedance and distortion) are good then the rest is up to one's imagination, a most powerful force.

Looks like the latest version of the E09 can drive the HD800's to at least 115.8 dB and the HD600 to 126.8 dB. I would think that 115.8 dB is plenty enough with headroom (recalulated from Sennheiser's spec sheets and FiiO's E09 spec 15.5Vp-p) But if you reall want to reach 120 dB there are other inexpensive solutions. The Woo Audio WA5-LE tube amp ($2750) has a S/N >= 95 dB, the cheap E09K has an S/N >= 108 DB(Aux). The S/N ratio is used to describe what DR is actually achieved in practice.  Yes SS Amps are usually quieter.

So when do you need a special amp? When you are driving a power hungry inefficient Planar Magnetic like an HE-6, which I haven't listened to, but all claims are that it sounds great.

I say put most of the money into the cans and less into an amp. If you pick something like an HE-6, that changes the picture, but that is not the common case, not by far.

Why should I be mad at you?

post #42 of 59
Thread Starter 

GUYS I HAVE DONE MORE RESEARCH, AND I THINK I HAVE FOUND THE PERFECT HEADPHONE, AND THEY WAS ON OFFER. 44% percent off from amazon. 


They have a wide soundstage, decent mids, and the bass is one of the best for an open headphone I bought the Philips Fidelio X1, and should come within a few days.


All the reviews say that its an amazing pair of headphones, and i also bought a 3.5 to3.5 cable because the stock cable has more resistance. Also a good thing is I can use this is my sound card and dont have to upgrade to the magni + modi. 

 

 

what are your guys opinion on the Philips Fidelio X1, cannot believe you guys didnt even recommend these pair as everyone is saying for the price you pay, you are getting a VERY high end headphone. 
 

post #43 of 59

Updated as to U6astic finding some of my numbers were not correct due to my sourcing the sensitivities from FiiO's web site. I looked up from within Sennheiser's product sheets and made the below table. Thanks dude.

 

Model

Sensitivity db for 1V

mW for

120dB SPL

Voltage for 120db SPL

HD600

112

21

2.5

HD650

102

213

8

HD800

102

213

8

The numbers are rounded to the places seen below.

post #44 of 59
Thread Starter 

The more I read about the Philips Fidelio X1, the more praise im hearing about them, If they perform as good as people say they do, I wont be "upgrading" to another pair unless my break down which I will get another pair. :)

post #45 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keelo117 View Post
 

The more I read about the Philips Fidelio X1, the more praise im hearing about them, If they perform as good as people say they do, I wont be "upgrading" to another pair unless my break down which I will get another pair. :)

So you're trying to make us believe that you will only have one pair of headphones? :happy_face1::happy_face1::happy_face1::happy_face1: 

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