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what amp can save my PRaTless DT880?

post #1 of 42
Thread Starter 

 

I have 250 ohm DT880 and feel they seriously lack PRaT. 

 

How much will an amp improve the PRaT? And will some amps improve it more than others? Are SS amps more PRaTty than tube amps? Do DACs make a difference?

post #2 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noob Meister Jr View Post
 

I have 250 ohm DT880 and feel they seriously lack PRaT. 

How much will an amp improve the PRaT? And will some amps improve it more than others? Are SS amps more PRaTty than tube amps? Do DACs make a difference?

What sources are you plugging the headphones (and DAC & Amp) into?

post #3 of 42

If anyone wonders, what does PRaT mean? look here, http://www.head-fi.org/t/509986/what-does-prat-stand-for

post #4 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PurpleAngel View Post
 

What sources are you plugging the headphones (and DAC & Amp) into?

 

 

good question. I am currently unsure. I have a turntable and a macbook air and I haven't quite made up my mind on which medium I plan to listen to my music. I was set on listening to vinyl so wouldn't need a DAC but I have heard that timing can be affected by the cartridge and that SQ in general can be affected by the mat and the cables (for analogue music) so I wonder if a DAC would be just as cheap and do a better job of keeping timing in check.

 

So let's just say the DAC is a less important question for now, the amp is an important question, but more important is whether the currently PRaTless DT880 can become PRaTty at all; because an amp recommendation for the most improvement in PRaT is worthless if it doesn't improve PRaT to an acceptable level.

 

i.e. it might be that the DT880 will never be PRaTty in which case I'm better off binning them and buying some cheap headphones with good PRaT rather than spending loads of money fruitlessly.

post #5 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noob Meister Jr View Post
 

I have 250 ohm DT880 and feel they seriously lack PRaT. 

How much will an amp improve the PRaT? And will some amps improve it more than others? Are SS amps more PRaTty than tube amps? Do DACs make a difference?

I'm really dumb, what are you referring to when you say the word PRaT? 

 

EDIT, found out what PRaT means

Maybe you can use different words besides"PRaT" in describing the sound of your DT880.


Edited by PurpleAngel - 12/21/13 at 7:03pm
post #6 of 42

What you need for PRAT with a 250 ohm Beyer DT880 is an amp that has a terrific slew rate.  Slew rate is the measure of an amp's ability to very quickly apply a voltage spike (and of course, dampen it afterward).

post #7 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PurpleAngel View Post
 

I'm really dumb, what are you referring to when you say the word PRaT? 

 

EDIT, found out what PRaT means

Maybe you can use different words besides"PRaT" in describing the sound of your DT880.

 


haha, love the modesty! Honestly I'm dumb too, I only learned what PRaT means yesterday.


Interesting that you ask for different words to describe the "sound", because "sound" is not really the best word to describe what "PRaT" describes lol :p. 

What I mean is that sound is a time independent term, PRaT is all about time. People explain it as foot tapping quality but I'm not sure that does it justice.. 

 

The thing I find most lacking is the timing of the music; in that tight recordings are not sounding tight, I am not hearing the impact of millisecond precise drumming coinciding with the guitars. The thing about PRaT is that the effects of each of its parts - pace, rhythm, and timing - are dependent on each other for the overall effect. So while I notice lack of timing, that could be because, for instance, the decay of the guitar is too long thereby offputting the rhythm so when the coincident drum is hit it sounds off in time.

post #8 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomb View Post
 

What you need for PRAT with a 250 ohm Beyer DT880 is an amp that has a terrific slew rate.  Slew rate is the measure of an amp's ability to very quickly apply a voltage spike (and of course, dampen it afterward).


This is an excellent answer, but just poses more questions: how do I know which amps have good slew rate? What does quick changing voltages mean sonically? Does it imply quick attack and decay? Next question, will even the greatest amp make my DT880 particularly PRaTty?

 

I have read mixed opinions about the PRaT of the 880 and most are focusing on speed. What about timing? Is it simply that a big soundstage will always take away from the tightness of the timing of multiple coincident instruments?

 

P.S. Thanks for the response, and future responsese tehe ;-)

post #9 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noob Meister Jr View Post
 

 

Interesting that you ask for different words to describe the "sound", because "sound" is not really the best word to describe what "PRaT" describes lol :p. 

What I mean is that sound is a time independent term, PRaT is all about time. People explain it as foot tapping quality but I'm not sure that does it justice.. 

 

The thing I find most lacking is the timing of the music; in that tight recordings are not sounding tight, I am not hearing the impact of millisecond precise drumming coinciding with the guitars. The thing about PRaT is that the effects of each of its parts - pace, rhythm, and timing - are dependent on each other for the overall effect. So while I notice lack of timing, that could be because, for instance, the decay of the guitar is too long thereby offputting the rhythm so when the coincident drum is hit it sounds off in time.

Where you use the word PRaT, I would guess a lot of Head-Fiers would use the terms like "lack of detail" or "bloated" for the sound.

post #10 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by PurpleAngel View Post

Where you use the word PRaT, I would guess a lot of Head-Fiers would use the terms like "lack of detail" or "bloated" for the sound.

It refers to speed, not detail: how fast and exciting it sounds. (I've noticed it's not such a popular term here. Overall, that's a good thing. Speed is a better term.)
Edited by Claritas - 12/22/13 at 6:16am
post #11 of 42

If PRaT is about making you tap your foot, dance a bit, I don't think DT880s are really gonna do that. They're studio headphones designed to be fairly flat. You'd probably want more bass to get you dancing.

I may be wrong though, I haven't heard the DT880s and I'm basing this off what I've heard about them.

post #12 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noob Meister Jr View Post
 


This is an excellent answer, but just poses more questions: how do I know which amps have good slew rate? What does quick changing voltages mean sonically? Does it imply quick attack and decay? Next question, will even the greatest amp make my DT880 particularly PRaTty?

 

I have read mixed opinions about the PRaT of the 880 and most are focusing on speed. What about timing? Is it simply that a big soundstage will always take away from the tightness of the timing of multiple coincident instruments?

 

P.S. Thanks for the response, and future responsese tehe ;-)

Get the Bravo Ocean tube headphone amplifier, $120

Should provide more voltage to the DT880 then your current Macbook.

post #13 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomb View Post
 

What you need for PRAT with a 250 ohm Beyer DT880 is an amp that has a terrific slew rate.  Slew rate is the measure of an amp's ability to very quickly apply a voltage spike (and of course, dampen it afterward).

When dealing with audio you don't need stellar slew rates, it's just that you don't need a lousy amp. inferior slew rates usually result in TIM (Transient Intermodulation Distortion). I'll venture to say ( SR= 2 x pi x freq x Volts) that 5V/uSec should be enough for audio producing 40 volts at 20 kHz. For a 250 Ohm can that should equate to 6.4 Watt at 20 kHz. My ears are ringing and maybe the DT880's would get fried.

I don't remember seeing Slew rate specs on headphone amps. The ancient 741 opamp had a slew rate to .5V/uSec and we've come a long way in the decades since then.

post #14 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post
 

When dealing with audio you don't need stellar slew rates, it's just that you don't need a lousy amp. inferior slew rates usually result in TIM (Transient Intermodulation Distortion). I'll venture to say ( SR= 2 x pi x freq x Volts) that 5V/uSec should be enough for audio producing 40 volts at 20 kHz. For a 250 Ohm can that should equate to 6.4 Watt at 20 kHz. My ears are ringing and maybe the DT880's would get fried.

I don't remember seeing Slew rate specs on headphone amps. The ancient 741 opamp had a slew rate to .5V/uSec and we've come a long way in the decades since then.


these things always confuse me :confused_face(1):

post #15 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post
 

When dealing with audio you don't need stellar slew rates, it's just that you don't need a lousy amp. inferior slew rates usually result in TIM (Transient Intermodulation Distortion). I'll venture to say ( SR= 2 x pi x freq x Volts) that 5V/uSec should be enough for audio producing 40 volts at 20 kHz. For a 250 Ohm can that should equate to 6.4 Watt at 20 kHz. My ears are ringing and maybe the DT880's would get fried.

I don't remember seeing Slew rate specs on headphone amps. The ancient 741 opamp had a slew rate to .5V/uSec and we've come a long way in the decades since then.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rubinstein View Post
 


these things always confuse me :confused_face(1):

This is easy stuff compared to most electrical engineering. Unfortunately, too many folks without the background volunteer misleading information on the Internet and end up needlessly spending another person's money. I understand the fun of tinkering with one's hobby, but many folks just want to listen to decent quality music without breaking the bank.

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