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Bigger soundstage means less tight musically. - Page 4

post #46 of 66

When the damping is low then the diaphragm will not immediately stop moving after you stop the input signal. Even the tiny diaphragm has a mass that wants to keep moving in the same direction. I'm no IEM expert, but I've never seen decay problems with IEMs.

 

I think "decay" problems are once again a simple frequency response problem. Boosted sub-bass will give you that "everything feels so slow" feeling. Boosted treble or some peak) will make everything/certain instruments appear "faster". The ER4 has no boosted sub-bass and boosted treble, so the perfect "fast" earphone.

 

Perceived speed has extremely little to do with driver speed.


Edited by xnor - 12/23/13 at 1:55pm
post #47 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by xnor View Post
 

When the damping is low then the diaphragm will not immediately stop moving after you stop the input signal. Even the tiny diaphragm has a mass that wants to keep moving in the same direction. I'm no IEM expert, but I've never seen decay problems with IEMs.

 

I think "decay" problems are once again a simple frequency response problem. Boosted sub-bass will give you that "everything feels so slow" feeling. Boosted treble or some peak) will make everything/certain instruments appear "faster". The ER4 has no boosted sub-bass and boosted treble, so the perfect "fast" earphone.

 

Perceived speed has extremely little to do with driver speed.

Decay should be the time to return to a resting position not for the sound to stop once the signal has stopped. If there was such a resonance that resulted in a continuing tone that would be a ringing at a specific frequency and not even a tone deaf Beats consumer would purchase such an IEM or can. If the true decay was so bad, I suspect the FR would suffer in so many ways.

post #48 of 66

I used -5 to -8db on the ER4 in the high mid and treble when I had them ^_^

but I still think (percieved or real) that the er4 was attacking and stopping faster than most. need to find myself some graphs, I went cold turkey on graph since I crashed my computer and lost my bookmarks (frefox sync went MEH on me this time ).

post #49 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by castleofargh View Post
 

I used -5 to -8db on the ER4 in the high mid and treble when I had them ^_^

but I still think (percieved or real) that the er4 was attacking and stopping faster than most. need to find myself some graphs, I went cold turkey on graph since I crashed my computer and lost my bookmarks (frefox sync went MEH on me this time ).

Perhaps your issues were with FR and sometimes boosted mids and treble can give sound a snap that you might perceive as attack. Something to consider.

post #50 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post
 

So you're saying that even though a musical note is still providing an electrical signal that the IEM will cutoff or prolong the sound of that note? You are kidding us, right?

Not kidding.   Honestly...it's really no joke!   That's the whole point of "fast" versus "slow" IEM's.  

 

Do you think it's all in the recording itself?  You are kidding us, right?

post #51 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
 

Why would anyone want to do that?

Because we can.  And for realism too. You are a bigshot on this forum. You surely know there are many ways to modify decay and reverberation.


Edited by Spyro - 12/23/13 at 7:25pm
post #52 of 66

I don't know any way to do that with headphones without royally messing up the frequency response. The way to manipulate that is with DSPs. I don't think it's possible to do that with headphones. Unless they have some sort of processor embedded in them, or if the music itself has depth cues (ambience, reverb, etc).


Edited by bigshot - 12/23/13 at 7:54pm
post #53 of 66

Quote:

 

Originally Posted by StanD View Post
 

So you're saying that even though a musical note is still providing an electrical signal that the IEM will cutoff or prolong the sound of that note? You are kidding us, right?

 

Originally Posted by Spyro View Post
 

Not kidding.   Honestly...it's really no joke!   That's the whole point of "fast" versus "slow" IEM's.  

 

Do you think it's all in the recording itself?  You are kidding us, right?

Once the note stops in the music it will not persist anywhere else but in one's imagination. period. I doubt that IEMs or cans come equipped with delay lines, plates or reverb springs. There's a reason why they can't fit inside.

post #54 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
 

I don't know any way to do that with headphones without royally messing up the frequency response. The way to manipulate that is with DSPs. I don't think it's possible to do that with headphones. Unless they have some sort of processor embedded in them, or if the music itself has depth cues (ambience, reverb, etc).

Or manipulated with an overactive imagination. Just say'in. :D

post #55 of 66

Well, yeah... but I'd hope he'd think about how "fast and slow" works and realize that for himself. A good first question is how long of a delay are we talking about.

post #56 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
 

Well, yeah... but I'd hope he'd think about how "fast and slow" works and realize that for himself. A good first question is how long of a delay are we talking about.

I'm not sure if he knows the difference between phase delay, reverb and what a delay line or real distance sounds like. When I lifted up my new set of HE-500's today, I thought that they were as heavy as a set of Plate reverberators, but once I put them on my head they didn't seem that heavy and had no delay.

post #57 of 66

don't know if we're all talking about the same thing?

I also can't see how one IEM could go from "slow" to "fast", but feeling that most of my BA are faster than my hd650 is something I do experience on a daily basis. and ofc I'm not talking turning the 5khz into a 4,6kz. even Dre wouldn't dare selling that.

quantity of bass, reverb, or the coil going from point A to point B slower at some point of the sine wave or overshooting?  at least the decay time isn't the same for all IEMs(at given frequencies). and from the impulse responses and square waves, it sure looks like the coil going from postion A to B can take many different roads depending on the driver and what powers it.

 

I don't know at what point we can be aware of those variations, but all in all talking about percieved speed doesn't look strange to me even if it's only reverb+signature.

post #58 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by castleofargh View Post
 

don't know if we're all talking about the same thing?

I also can't see how one IEM could go from "slow" to "fast", but feeling that most of my BA are faster than my hd650 is something I do experience on a daily basis. and ofc I'm not talking turning the 5khz into a 4,6kz. even Dre wouldn't dare selling that.

quantity of bass, reverb, or the coil going from point A to point B slower at some point of the sine wave or overshooting?  at least the decay time isn't the same for all IEMs(at given frequencies). and from the impulse responses and square waves, it sure looks like the coil going from postion A to B can take many different roads depending on the driver and what powers it.

 

I don't know at what point we can be aware of those variations, but all in all talking about percieved speed doesn't look strange to me even if it's only reverb+signature.

The delays you refer to are waveform related or inertia of parts of the IEM/can which are not greater than a single cycle and thus are not the same time related inference as another person on this thread conceived. We can perceive placement or space by phase manipulations but that is not as same reverb or time related delays (mS or greater) where a note persists beyond the signal coming from the source. He was saying that the note persists beyond the signal, if you ask me that's rediculous as it would require hardware that could never fit inside an IEM or can. Reverb springs/plates, analog bucket brigades and so on in an IEM, even Dr. Dre. can't so that. Since when do IEMs or cans create echo or reverb? Some perception of space as in placement, yes,  but not reverb.


Edited by StanD - 12/24/13 at 4:58am
post #59 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by castleofargh View Post
 

I don't know at what point we can be aware of those variations, but all in all talking about percieved speed doesn't look strange to me even if it's only reverb+signature.

 

The threshold for perception of group delay is between 1 and 3 mS. I don't know how a headphone could produce that kind of effect without having massive response problems. And that wouldn't be perceived as attack and decay, it would sound like phase shifting.


Edited by bigshot - 12/24/13 at 9:25am
post #60 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
 

 

The threshold for perception of group delay is between 1 and 3 mS. I don't know how a headphone could produce that kind of effect without having massive response problems. And that wouldn't be perceived as attack and decay, it would sound like phase shifting.

I don't know how anyone can fit a delay line, plates or reverb springs in a headphone or even funnier IEMs. Even Dr. Dre can't do that. Let's see 1-3 mS, an analog bucket brigade is too noisy and not hifi. How about a, ADC, RAM, controller, DAC and Amp. That should do it. You think that could fit in the headband? I don't think our friend is willing to give up the fantasy.

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