Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Computer Audio › The dBpoweramp / Exact Audio Copy Sound Experiment - Do you hear the difference?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

The dBpoweramp / Exact Audio Copy Sound Experiment - Do you hear the difference? - Page 2

Poll Results: Do you hear the difference between dBpoweramp and Exact Audio Copy CD rips?

 
  • 66% (8)
    I do not hear any difference at all.
  • 8% (1)
    I hear a difference! dBpoweramp sounds better to me.
  • 25% (3)
    I hear a difference! Exact Audio Copy sounds better to me.
  • 0% (0)
    I hear a difference...but I'm not sure which I prefer.
12 Total Votes  
post #16 of 67

So basically you're saying that AccurateRip and checksuming results are wrong?

 

@hogger129

I meant post your ABX report not your summary.

post #17 of 67
No, I did not mean to imply that. The data inside the file relevant to the audio is the same if the AccurateRip checksum matches....the checksums are based on the resulting WAV. What I'm attempting to say is that two files are clearly different if they sound different. Only a thorough analysis of the guilty files can show what that difference is.

Maybe replay gain is set differently...
Quote:
Originally Posted by A_Man_Eating_Duck View Post

So basically you're saying that AccurateRip and checksuming results are wrong?

@hogger129

I meant post your ABX report not your summary.

Edited by GrindingThud - 12/28/13 at 2:22pm
post #18 of 67

Quote:

Originally Posted by Music Alchemist View Post
.......

 

Here's where it gets confusing.

 

To analyze the data, I used foobar2000's Binary Comparator component, Exact Audio Copy's WAV comparison feature, and Liberty Instruments Audio DiffMaker signal difference extraction software.

 

All three indicate that the files are bit-identical; yet, they sound drastically different!

 

Objectively, this should not be happening at all...but it undoubtedly is.

 

I also went to great lengths to ensure I had the proper settings configured for both programs to generate flawless rips, so I know the problem doesn't lie there.

 

.......
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrindingThud View Post

No, I did not mean to imply that. The data inside the file relevant to the audio is the same if the AccurateRip checksum matches....the checksums are based on the resulting WAV. What I'm attempting to say is that two files are clearly different if they sound different. Only a thorough analysis of the guilty files can show what that difference is.

Maybe replay gain is set differently...

File have been checked against each other and they are exactly the same. The files can't be the cause of the difference in sound is my point.

 

 

Another thing, if there was a problem between rippers there would be a lot more posts about it and more than 6 responses in the poll.


Edited by A_Man_Eating_Duck - 12/28/13 at 3:00pm
post #19 of 67
I think we agree. If the files are the same, and the playback metadata is the same, then the only things left are things like buffering delays and bias.
Quote:
Originally Posted by A_Man_Eating_Duck View Post

File have been checked against each other and they are exactly the same. The files can't be the cause of the difference in sound is my point.


Another thing, if there was a problem between rippers there would be a lot more posts about and more than 6 responses in the poll.
post #20 of 67

This still isn't addressing why EAC rips might sound better.

post #21 of 67
My belief is that there is something in the metadata/container affecting playback. Anything from a deep default setting difference to a simple bug.
It seems multiple people (at least two) have noticed the effect and on different playback platforms....no one has said the files sound unacceptably bad, just subtly different.
Complete settings dump, versions of ripper, and version of playback are needed to narrow down a set of reproducible conditions.
If the community had two short files to analyze (30 second long pair that fails a blind test) it would be easier to figure out what's going on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hogger129 View Post

This still isn't addressing why EAC rips might sound better.

Edited by GrindingThud - 12/28/13 at 5:47pm
post #22 of 67

I have just ripped the same track with 4 different rippers.

 

Exact Audio Copy

 

D:\TEST\EAC - 01 Bohemian Rhapsody.wav
62480924 bytes

CRC32: f81bc4d5
MD5: 90469dfc12bc1aa852914c9f216dfdb0
SHA512: 8009912aee553461417b60ca93aa7ff65c55de514b0c6eb8def85a10d523bac9614581bf80a159cfd54e427ef6d683ded5ccf6880a9442ecd06504ee6515ecce

 

dBpoweramp (needed to remove metadata to get checksums to match)

 

D:\TEST\DBP - 01 Queen - Bohemian Rhapsody.wav
62480924 bytes

CRC32: f81bc4d5
MD5: 90469dfc12bc1aa852914c9f216dfdb0
SHA512: 8009912aee553461417b60ca93aa7ff65c55de514b0c6eb8def85a10d523bac9614581bf80a159cfd54e427ef6d683ded5ccf6880a9442ecd06504ee6515ecce

 

CUETools Ripper

 

D:\TEST\CUETOOLS - 01. Bohemian Rhapsody.wav
62480924 bytes

CRC32: f81bc4d5
MD5: 90469dfc12bc1aa852914c9f216dfdb0
SHA512: 8009912aee553461417b60ca93aa7ff65c55de514b0c6eb8def85a10d523bac9614581bf80a159cfd54e427ef6d683ded5ccf6880a9442ecd06504ee6515ecce

 

Foobar2000 (needed to remove metadata to get checksums to match)

 

D:\TEST\Foobar 2000 - 01. Bohemian Rhapsody.wav
62480924 bytes

CRC32: f81bc4d5
MD5: 90469dfc12bc1aa852914c9f216dfdb0
SHA512: 8009912aee553461417b60ca93aa7ff65c55de514b0c6eb8def85a10d523bac9614581bf80a159cfd54e427ef6d683ded5ccf6880a9442ecd06504ee6515ecce

 

As you can see all the checksums match, all 4 files are identical. All these rippers produce the same output, I'm not talk error correction ability here that can vary. This means the rippers are not altering the sound in any way. There must be something else that is altering the sound on playback, software or hardware.


Edited by A_Man_Eating_Duck - 12/28/13 at 5:51pm
post #23 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by A_Man_Eating_Duck View Post
 

I have just ripped the same track with 4 different rippers.

 

Exact Audio Copy

 

D:\TEST\EAC - 01 Bohemian Rhapsody.wav
62480924 bytes

CRC32: f81bc4d5
MD5: 90469dfc12bc1aa852914c9f216dfdb0
SHA512: 8009912aee553461417b60ca93aa7ff65c55de514b0c6eb8def85a10d523bac9614581bf80a159cfd54e427ef6d683ded5ccf6880a9442ecd06504ee6515ecce

 

dBpoweramp (needed to remove metadata to get checksums to match)

 

D:\TEST\DBP - 01 Queen - Bohemian Rhapsody.wav
62480924 bytes

CRC32: f81bc4d5
MD5: 90469dfc12bc1aa852914c9f216dfdb0
SHA512: 8009912aee553461417b60ca93aa7ff65c55de514b0c6eb8def85a10d523bac9614581bf80a159cfd54e427ef6d683ded5ccf6880a9442ecd06504ee6515ecce

 

CUETools Ripper

 

D:\TEST\CUETOOLS - 01. Bohemian Rhapsody.wav
62480924 bytes

CRC32: f81bc4d5
MD5: 90469dfc12bc1aa852914c9f216dfdb0
SHA512: 8009912aee553461417b60ca93aa7ff65c55de514b0c6eb8def85a10d523bac9614581bf80a159cfd54e427ef6d683ded5ccf6880a9442ecd06504ee6515ecce

 

Foobar2000 (needed to remove metadata to get checksums to match)

 

D:\TEST\Foobar 2000 - 01. Bohemian Rhapsody.wav
62480924 bytes

CRC32: f81bc4d5
MD5: 90469dfc12bc1aa852914c9f216dfdb0
SHA512: 8009912aee553461417b60ca93aa7ff65c55de514b0c6eb8def85a10d523bac9614581bf80a159cfd54e427ef6d683ded5ccf6880a9442ecd06504ee6515ecce

 

As you can see all the checksums match, all 4 files are identical. All these rippers produce the same output, I'm not talk error correction ability here that can vary. This means the rippers are not altering the sound in any way. There must be something else that is altering the sound on playback, software or hardware.

 

Is it possible for ripping speed to have any effect?  With dBpoweramp I was always setting it at x10 in Secure Mode.  In EAC, I am using Secure Mode and allowing it to slow down the ripping speed.  Typically it averages x4.6 on a clean disc.

 

I don't think this should affect it.  

 

All my playback is done on the exact same computer (Windows 7 64-bit Home Premium, Intel i5, 8gb DDR3 RAM), with foobar2000, with my ATH-M50 headphones.  


Edited by hogger129 - 12/28/13 at 6:01pm
post #24 of 67
Im on my tablet and don't have a PC handy....can you peek at the WAV headers and see if they are different. I believe the headers are outside the checksum. Try this header investigator:
http://www.railjonrogut.com/HeaderInvestigator.htm
I'm trying to find a better one....not sure if this one shows all the fields
Quote:
Originally Posted by A_Man_Eating_Duck View Post


As you can see all the checksums match, all 4 files are identical. All these rippers produce the same output, I'm not talk error correction ability here that can vary. This means the rippers are not altering the sound in any way. There must be something else that is altering the sound on playback, software or hardware.

Edited by GrindingThud - 12/28/13 at 6:02pm
post #25 of 67

I'm doing a file compare using exact file so wav headers are included.

 

Using the header investigator i changed the header on one of the files from 2 bits per sample to 1 bit per sample and the checksum is now this.

 

D:\TEST\Checksum\TEST - 01. Bohemian Rhapsody.wav
62480924 bytes

CRC32: dfac9a1d
MD5: 6baee51f7e886dd33e0ca32c6c4c9ced
SHA512: 2e9ac0b1702603b9215ed6c543dccc0be33debdef30cfa7dca38c61ee47adb08f05e236f9bda0a68477821b07fa63ad0ca206aa0776fd03df015b5359e81644f

 

when i change it back to 2 bit per sample

 

D:\TEST\Checksum\TEST - 01. Bohemian Rhapsody.wav
62480924 bytes

CRC32: f81bc4d5
MD5: 90469dfc12bc1aa852914c9f216dfdb0
SHA512: 8009912aee553461417b60ca93aa7ff65c55de514b0c6eb8def85a10d523bac9614581bf80a159cfd54e427ef6d683ded5ccf6880a9442ecd06504ee6515ecce


Edited by A_Man_Eating_Duck - 12/28/13 at 6:08pm
post #26 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrindingThud View Post

My belief is that there is something in the metadata/container affecting playback. Anything from a deep default setting difference to a simple bug.
It seems multiple people (at least two) have noticed the effect and on different playback platforms....no one has said the files sound unacceptably bad, just subtly different.
Complete settings dump, versions of ripper, and version of playback are needed to narrow down a set of reproducible conditions.
If the community had two short files to analyze (30 second long pair that fails a blind test) it would be easier to figure out what's going on.

 

Could this be a possible explanation even when the rip is being done to .wav?  

post #27 of 67

yes, metadata can be added to wave files.

post #28 of 67
Well, that blows my current theory....the header is inside the checksums and they changed...... (Thinking cap back on)...
post #29 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by hogger129 View Post
 

 

Is it possible for ripping speed to have any effect?  With dBpoweramp I was always setting it at x10 in Secure Mode.  In EAC, I am using Secure Mode and allowing it to slow down the ripping speed.  Typically it averages x4.6 on a clean disc.

 

I don't think this should affect it.  

 

All my playback is done on the exact same computer (Windows 7 64-bit Home Premium, Intel i5, 8gb DDR3 RAM), with foobar2000, with my ATH-M50 headphones.  

 

i think what you should do is, rip the same track as wave on EAC and DBPoweramp and see if their checksums match, use foobars bitcompare plugin and see if they match. If they do, ripping is not causing the problem. how is you Foobar setup, using any EQ's and what is you output mode? DS, KS, ASIO, WASAPI?

post #30 of 67
This one works better: http://www.menasoft.com/blog/?p=34
RIFFPad 0.7
Switched over to PC....this one shows all the data and metadata.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrindingThud View Post

Well, that blows my current theory....the header is inside the checksums and they changed...... (Thinking cap back on)...

Edited by GrindingThud - 12/28/13 at 6:23pm
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Computer Audio
Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Computer Audio › The dBpoweramp / Exact Audio Copy Sound Experiment - Do you hear the difference?