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post #286 of 1546
It may be that all or most DSD dacs have Sabre. Good for that, maybe, but not so much for PCM IMO.
post #287 of 1546
Thread Starter 

Yes, I actually see the "popularity" of SABRE / DSD as a threat to good sound, or at least available sound signatures. DSD is being heavily pimped right now by industry movers such a Michael Lavorgna, etc. Sony may die soon, so as a desperate act, they could decide to release their entire catalog on DSD (it's not going to sound any better; but as we all know, anything "new" must be better.)

 

I think of SABRE / DSD as the Monsanto / GMO of the audio world. It's my sincere wish that audiophiles (new and old) will get a chance to be able to hear (or to be reminded of) the old-school R2R DACs or even some of the better S-D implementations. It's nice seeing companies like TeraDAK, AGD, Metrum, and soon Schiit, to be able to offer R2R DACs at semi-reasonable prices. I hope more will follow so we don't need to rely on a diminishing supply / increasing expensive "legacy" or "industrial" R2R DAC chips.

 

Considering there is already hi-res PCM, DSD needs to die like Betamax.


Edited by purrin - 1/15/14 at 11:13am
post #288 of 1546
Quote:
Originally Posted by purrin View Post
 

Yes, I actually see the "popularity" of SABRE / DSD as a threat to good sound, or at least available sound signatures. DSD is being heavily pimped right now by industry movers such a Michael Lavorgna, etc. Sony may die soon, so as a desperate act, they could decide to release their entire catalog on DSD (it's not going to sound any better; but as we all know, anything "new" must be better.)

 

I think of SABRE / DSD as the Monsanto / GMO of the audio world. It's my sincere wish that audiophiles (new and old) will get a chance to be able to hear (or to be reminded of) the old-school R2R DACs or even some of the better S-D implementations. It's nice seeing companies like TeraDAK, AGD, Metrum, and soon Schiit, to be able to offer R2R DACs at semi-reasonable prices. I hope more will follow so we don't need to rely on a diminishing supply / increasing expensive "legacy" or "industrial" R2R DAC chips.

 

Considering there is already hi-res PCM, DSD needs to die like Betamax.

 

I hope it does.

post #289 of 1546

What is R2R and what DACs does Schiit have in the pipeline?

post #290 of 1546

I swear DSD sounded better with my BMC PureDAC than it does with my Yulong DA8.  Now it sounds about the same as high-res PCM.

 

The only non-sabre dac I've had is the Gungnir, and I think I sort of agree with Purrin about the dynamics.  It's more lively than any of the sabres I've had.  The PureDAC had the best tone, though.  Of course my experience is limited, as is my budget.  I'd love to find a good compromise, but I'm also wary of diminishing returns... how different are the Yulong, Gungnir, and PureDAC, really?  In my memory, the difference is huge.  If I had all of them, all feeding the Mjolnir, feeding the LCD-X, could I pick them out?  Who knows.  I don't have the time or money to try that.  That's why I value Gary and Purrin's efforts.  

 

I'm fine with DSD going away, ultimately.  I think most of the perceived difference is a trick of levels being out of whack and just sourcing better masters.  If I get seriously serious about this hobby, I'll get hi-res PCM and DSD versions of the same thing and compare them... but I probably won't.  I'll probably just be happy with what I have while simultaneously wishing I had something else.

 

Bleh.

post #291 of 1546
Quote:
Originally Posted by purrin View Post
 

Considering there is already hi-res PCM, DSD needs to die like Betamax.

 

This article did a listening comparison between 44.1k vs 96k  vs  192k   vs DSD

http://www.audiostream.com/content/dsd-v-pcm-file-comparison-16441-2496-24192-64x-dsd-128x-dsd

The conclusion was that: going from 44.1 to 96 to 192, there are gains in sound quality,   and going from 192k to DSD there is a huge jump in sound quality.

 

I have only listened to 44.1k.    I will do a test of 44.1k vs DSD of the same music using Hilo.

 

Technically:

In many studios, the recorded DSD is first converted to DXD, which is 352.8kHz PCM, for editing.  Then convert back to DSD.    So many of the DSD/SACD we get actually is converted from this 352.8 kHz  PCM.   After this conversion, the size of DSD file is ~ 1/4 of the DXD file.   We can think of DSD as a 'lossy compression' of 352.8 kHz PCM.    In this case I am not sure how big is the sound quality jump between DSD and 192k.

There are some SACD was mastered without this conversion step.


Edited by yfei - 1/15/14 at 12:24pm
post #292 of 1546
Quote:
Originally Posted by schneller View Post
 

What is R2R and what DACs does Schiit have in the pipeline?

Yggdrasil is Schiit's statement DAC.  I assume that's what he's talking about.  

 

I think this is R2R: http://www.tek.com/blog/tutorial-digital-analog-conversion-%E2%80%93-r-2r-dac


Edited by cizx - 1/15/14 at 12:56pm
post #293 of 1546
Quote:
Originally Posted by yfei View Post
 

 

This article did a listening comparison between 44.1k vs 96k  vs  192k   vs DSD

http://www.audiostream.com/content/dsd-v-pcm-file-comparison-16441-2496-24192-64x-dsd-128x-dsd

The conclusion was that: going from 44.1 to 96 to 192, there are gains in sound quality,   and going from 192k to DSD there is a huge jump in sound quality.

 

I have only listened to 44.1k.    I will do a test of 44.1k vs DSD using Hilo.

 

Technically:

In many studios, the recorded DSD is first converted to DXD, which is 352.8kHz PCM, for editing.  Then convert back to DSD.    So basically most of the DSD/SACD we get actually is converted from this 352.8 kHz  PCM.   After this conversion, the size of DSD file is ~ 1/4 of the DXD file.   We can think of DSD as a 'lossy compression' of 352.8 kHz PCM.    In this case I am not sure how big is the sound quality jump between DSD and 192k.

There are some SACD was mastered without this conversion step.

Ugh.  All this conversion is such a bummer.  I hear that most music isn't even created digitally... I saw some guy in a subway using a guitar.. with strings.  I was like, where's the USB port?  I wanted to scream at people not to listen, to run home and download a flac of the song he was playing, but then the train came.

post #294 of 1546
LOL.....

It gets worse, I also get to worry about my guitar A/D converter for recording in Garageband!
post #295 of 1546
Edited for tardiness. 
post #296 of 1546
Quote:
Originally Posted by cizx View Post
 

Ragnarok is Schiit's statement DAC.  I assume that's what he's talking about.

 

I think this is R2R: http://www.tek.com/blog/tutorial-digital-analog-conversion-%E2%80%93-r-2r-dac

Quick correction: Yggdrasil is he statement dac. Ragnarok is the statement amp. ;)

 

-Dniel

post #297 of 1546
Quote:
Originally Posted by BournePerfect View Post
 

Quick correction: Yggdrasil is he statement dac. Ragnarok is the statement amp. ;)

 

-Dniel

Does anyone know when the DAC is out? - sometime in the summer? I will be hunting for a DAC towards the end of the year. I wonder if it will compete in the BDA2 ballpark? 

 

Sabre chip??

post #298 of 1546
Quote:
Originally Posted by BournePerfect View Post
 

Quick correction: Yggdrasil is he statement dac. Ragnarok is the statement amp. ;)

 

-Dniel

Correct!

post #299 of 1546
Quote:
Originally Posted by magiccabbage View Post
 

Does anyone know when the DAC is out? - sometime in the summer? I will be hunting for a DAC towards the end of the year. I wonder if it will compete in the BDA2 ballpark? 

 

Sabre chip??

there's, like, a whole thread on it here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/667711/new-schiit-ragnarok-and-yggdrasil

post #300 of 1546
Quote:
Originally Posted by magiccabbage View Post
 

Does anyone know when the DAC is out? - sometime in the summer? I will be hunting for a DAC towards the end of the year. I wonder if it will compete in the BDA2 ballpark? 

 

Schiit said fairly soon after the release of the Rag barring any unforeseen problems. They said the Rag might be ready early Feb.

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