Thoughts on a bunch of DACs (and why delta-sigma kinda sucks, just to get you to think about stuff) | Page 291 | Headphone Reviews and Discussion - Head-Fi.org

thegunner100 · Apr 22, 2015 at 9:13 AM

pldelisle said:
Ahahah !!!

Well, for me it's 1345 $ US, but with customs, exchange rate and Quebec's taxes, it rises to 2000 $ CND for the Schiit kit.

The Yggy is simply too pricey for me. I'm still not engineer, only an engineering student ! ahah ! When I'll get the real engineer pay, then, maybe

Yes, I have these headphones, but I love them. The thing is I can't always be at home to listen to music. It's a mix of university, bus and home. So I needed a pair of headphones that is good with an iPhone and a more powerful setup. I liked the sound of the Momentum in both situation so I decided to grab a pair of these last year. Still like the sound, because I have never heard one of these HD-600/650 on a good DAC+Amp setup But I don't close the door to upgrade my headphones in the next year. Momentum are good on the go, but I know there is much better than these cans with a Schiit setup.

My other rig is an Onkyo stereo analog amplifier with Polk Audio speakers. Nothing terrific here, but has good performance for the price I paid. It was doing good with my Xonar. But I know that my "good" might be your "poor" for you guys ahaha ! I'm a beginner in this world.

Why not just get a cheaper schiit stack like the modi 2uber and magni 2 uber? They'll work well for your momentums and gives you leftover money to spend on the hd600s/650s. You can find a pair of used hd600s for about $220 nowadays, and they scale up like crazy. Or just get a GO 450, which you can use on the go as well.

Once you get a good pair of headphones, then you should worry about the rest of your chain. I consider the hd600/650 the minimal point of entry.

pldelisle · Apr 22, 2015 at 9:22 AM

Thanks thegunner.

Quote:

Why not just get a cheaper schiit stack like the modi 2uber and magni 2 uber?

Simply because when I buy something, I buy it for a long time. Maybe for the next 5 to 10 years if there is still support for this DAC. So if I have to buy something, I'm willing to pay more if what I buy can scale up well in time, instead of having to sell what I previously bought to upgrade to new one and than waste even more money buy doing so.

Once you get a good pair of headphones, then you should worry about the rest of your chain. I consider the hd600/650 the minimal point of entry.

The Momentum are that bad ?

negura · Apr 22, 2015 at 9:27 AM

pldelisle said:
Simply because when I buy something, I buy it for a long time. Maybe for the next 5 to 10 years if there is still support for this DAC. So if I have to buy something, I'm willing to pay more if what I buy can scale up well in time, instead of having to sell what I previously bought to upgrade to new one and than waste even more money buy doing so.

The Momentum are that bad ?

Best go to the for sale section on these forums, buy yourself a pair of used HD600/650s and some other used entry-level Schiit gear and hear for yourself. Then compare those to the Momentums. You can then resell the used gear with very little to no loss.

That will put you in a better position for bigger/long term decisions.

7ryder · Apr 22, 2015 at 9:32 AM

ginetto61 said:
Hi and just to say ... mee too.
I read something amusing on the subject.

Analog Devices experts did not recommend the dac chip used because deemed too much for an audio application.
How much is too much should be open to debate especially if the listenings are so positive,

The dac chip at 100 USD/each is considered too expensive.
Yes .. maybe in a dac priced 200 USD ... but let's say that a serious high end dac usually starts around 5-6000 USD ... 100 or 200 USD more are not going to make a big difference

I really do not understand why they do not produce multibit dacs anymore ... at least to be used in better dac.
In my humble experience sigma-delta dacs lack drive ... dynamics. An unforgivable sin with music ! this is not realistic
And even gifted designers tend to follow the trend ... with replacing the famous UltraAnalog multibit dac chip with a more recent Cyrrus logic sigma delta and saying that this is a remarkable improvement on the older chip.

You will understand that the monkey (me) gets easily confused

Thanks for the interesting thread.
Regards, gino

I think what you're missing here isn't just the increased cost of the DAC chips involved, it is also the cost and time to develop the digital filters required for these chips. Then there is also the case of whether or not the audio manufacturer has the "chops" to be able to even design the required filters. Taking something off the shelf and slapping it in a case is much faster as well as cheaper.

That said, even though companies like Linn and Ayre use delta-sigma DAC chips, they put their own filters in and by-pass the built-in filters on the chips themselves; this may be why they've gotten such a good reputation for good sound.

Take a look at this post from Mike regarding the Digital Filter/Interpolator/Sample Rate Converter in the Yggy, it sheds some light on why everyone isn't doing what Schiit is doing

http://www.head-fi.org/t/667711/new-schiit-ragnarok-and-yggdrasil/4950#post_11396780

estreeter · Apr 22, 2015 at 9:34 AM

I was asked why I've spent so much time in this thread and the main Ryggy thread when I have no immediate plans to buy the DAC.

1. purrin ruled a line through every s-d DAC he had ever heard when he took delivery of a vintage Theta - one man's opinion, but it sparked my interest

2. When you go back through the CAL/SFD/Theta history, you soon realise these werent faceless engineers working behind a corporate firewall. These guys had some very strong opinions back then and that attitude shines through in a lot of what Mike has written over the last 12 or so months

3. How many times in audio do you have a renegade prepared to take something that the so-called majority believe cant work for a given purpose and make it work ? Bruno Putzeys reportedly did it with NCore and Nelson Pass has reportedly done it with JFETs - go back a few years and you will find a slew of people who were prepared to pooh-pooh both from a design POV and the tube brigade were particularly incensed that someone was prepared to take a transistor which wasnt even designed for audio applications and try to build an amp with SET-like characteristics. Mike has joined those two and a few others in the renegade camp.

4. The hype train just gained momentum with each passing month as the initial 'Jan 2015' deadline expired, and I admit that it was hard to ignore.

In short, I like to see people realise their dreams, but never more so when there is a chorus of naysayers on the sidelines saying 'It cant be done !'. Well done to Mike and the team at Schiit.

pldelisle · Apr 22, 2015 at 9:41 AM

negura said:
You can the resell the used gear with very little to no loss.

That will put you in a better position for bigger/long term decisions.

Problem is, you have to find buyers for this afterward !

Quebec's market is not California or US market. You look in the local classified ads and you get almost nothing about whatever seems audiophile grade. I've tried to sell my Asus board for months and still got no offer for it ... different things you'll tell me, but globally, the interest for sound is not here in Quebec. And selling it on eBay means custom fees and fairly high shipping cost ... :frowning2:

LingLing1337 · Apr 22, 2015 at 9:47 AM

pldelisle said:
negura said:

You can the resell the used gear with very little to no loss.

That will put you in a better position for bigger/long term decisions.

Click to expand...

Problem is, you have to find buyers for this afterward !

Quebec's market is not California or US market. You look in the local classified ads and you get almost nothing about whatever seems audiophile grade. I've tried to sell my Asus board for months and still got no offer for it ... different things you'll tell me, but globally, the interest for sound is not here in Quebec. And selling it on eBay means custom fees and fairly high shipping cost ...

Is there a canadian Audiogon? The few times ive shipped to canadaland i send "electronics" with a value of "$5". Still not necessarily cheap for me to ship but the buyer never complains about customs.

pldelisle · Apr 22, 2015 at 9:49 AM

I never heard of such a community for Canada.

jacal01 · Apr 22, 2015 at 10:03 AM

pldelisle said:
A friend is trying to convince me that spending 2000 bucks on a Wyrd + Gungnir + Asgard 2 is a waste of money.

And you call him a friend?

pldelisle said:
Simply because when I buy something, I buy it for a long time.

Ahahahahahaha... hah!

You need to forget you found this forum. No, seriously. You need to run away while you can.

Mortalcoil · Apr 22, 2015 at 10:05 AM

pldelisle said:
I never heard of such a community for Canada.

Try this http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/

Upgrade those headphones first if you can

pldelisle · Apr 22, 2015 at 10:09 AM

jacal01 said:
And you call him a friend?

Ahahahahahaha... hah!

You need to forget you found this forum. No, seriously. You need to run away while you can.

Ahahah ! Funny !

Thanks MortalCoil for this link ! Didn't know that !

mikek200 · Apr 22, 2015 at 10:43 AM

estreeter said:
I was asked why I've spent so much time in this thread and the main Ryggy thread when I have no immediate plans to buy the DAC.

1. purrin ruled a line through every s-d DAC he had ever heard when he took delivery of a vintage Theta - one man's opinion, but it sparked my interest

2. When you go back through the CAL/SFD/Theta history, you soon realise these werent faceless engineers working behind a corporate firewall. These guys had some very strong opinions back then and that attitude shines through in a lot of what Mike has written over the last 12 or so months

3. How many times in audio do you have a renegade prepared to take something that the so-called majority believe cant work for a given purpose and make it work ? Bruno Putzeys reportedly did it with NCore and Nelson Pass has reportedly done it with JFETs - go back a few years and you will find a slew of people who were prepared to pooh-pooh both from a design POV and the tube brigade were particularly incensed that someone was prepared to take a transistor which wasnt even designed for audio applications and try to build an amp with SET-like characteristics. Mike has joined those two and a few others in the renegade camp.

4. The hype train just gained momentum with each passing month as the initial 'Jan 2015' deadline expired, and I admit that it was hard to ignore.

In short, I like to see people realise their dreams, but never more so when there is a chorus of naysayers on the sidelines saying 'It cant be done !'. Well done to Mike and the team at Schiit.

+1 Dan
Excellent post..

Jason Stoddard · Apr 22, 2015 at 11:15 AM

estreeter said:
3. How many times in audio do you have a renegade prepared to take something that the so-called majority believe cant work for a given purpose and make it work ? Bruno Putzeys reportedly did it with NCore and Nelson Pass has reportedly done it with JFETs - go back a few years and you will find a slew of people who were prepared to pooh-pooh both from a design POV and the tube brigade were particularly incensed that someone was prepared to take a transistor which wasnt even designed for audio applications and try to build an amp with SET-like characteristics. Mike has joined those two and a few others in the renegade camp.

Actually, if you take a look back into the deep history of high-end audio, you may see that Nelson and Bruno followed Mike...Mike was an audio rebel first in the 1970s, proselytizing tubes when solid-state had taken over, then using 6DJ8 tubes for audio, rather than the commonly accepted 12AX7 (which Mike has much disdain for.) His original Theta (not Theta Digital) started in the 1970s.

And then there's Theta Digital, and Mike's first DSP stuff, and jitter, and...

And then there's the first upgradable surround processors...

And then there's the first practical media center, pre-Windows Media Center, with a custom UI and video DSP.

Bottom line, Mike's history is a bit more deep and varied than some random dude taking potshots at delta-sigma. Whether or not he's right is up for the market to decide.

Aaaaanndd...not taking away from Bruno or Nelson, just talking histories here...and Mike has a very, very long history of "thinkin' different" and "skewering sacred cows."

estreeter · Apr 22, 2015 at 11:49 AM

My apologies, Jason and Mike - extremely poor wording on my part. If anything, the other two have joined Mike not the other way around. They definitely arent the only ones in that 'renegade' group but I can only go on what I read online : unlike Mike, I wasnt actually there when he stopped selling audio and started building gear. Some of my favorite stories dont come from anyone directly connected to Schiit - in this case, from a competitor:

http://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/10982/

prot · Apr 22, 2015 at 11:49 AM

pldelisle said:
The Yggy seems just ... wow ! Incredible !!!!!

But I'm sorry I have to ask this question :

A friend is trying to convince me that spending 2000 bucks on a Wyrd + Gungnir + Asgard 2 is a waste of money.

He wants me to try his E-MU 0202 USB sound interface... http://www.creative.com/emu/products/product.aspx?pid=15186

I'm going to try it tonight, but any though on this ? I personally think that this would be a downgrade compared to my previous Asus Xonar Essence STX... And my little finger tells me that would be like day and night with a Schiit kit...

Am I right ?

You are probably right about Xonar vs EMU but I guess it's worth a try ... may be a slight improvement.
However, I wont read so much into those night&day reviews when it comes to the step from Xonar to a Schiit stack ... the Xonar has a pretty good DAC and you may have a not so pleasant surprise when the $2000 improvement turns out to be barely audible. Why dont you just order a Gugnir first and see how much of a diff you can hear in your system!?

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