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Thoughts on a bunch of DACs (and why delta-sigma kinda sucks, just to get you to think about stuff) - Page 45  

post #661 of 6360

That's the point - price doesn't always equal quality.....  :smile:

post #662 of 6360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stapsy View Post
 

Intersesting...how were you converting the USB to SPDIF before switching to the USB implementation on the Gungnir? 

 

............

I used the BNC Halide bridge.

post #663 of 6360
Quote:
Originally Posted by saer View Post
 

Ahh yes sorry, the Gungnir.

 

USB2 provides better sound quality over toslink and coax, huh ? I've been doing it all wrong.. I thought USB was the last resort :blink:

 

the USB Gen 2 in the Gungnir sounds much better than using a USB-SPDIF MF V-Link and fancy Stereovox digital cable in my rig, but i've not tried better converters.

post #664 of 6360

boa, didn't you just tell me to get the m51 in another thread? lol. I am not surprised. I felt it was overpriced. I did have it.

post #665 of 6360
LOL...one thing to spend your money, another to spend mine!
post #666 of 6360
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by john57 View Post
 

I listen to mostly classical music myself and hundreds of CD's and never had a problem with my CD players on this. Sometimes there are a few seconds added to it before the track change. Why this became a problem after 30 years? 

 

OK. Timeout. You are confusing me. I don't think you understand what gapless is. Do you care to offer your definition of what you think it is?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by john57 View Post
 

I listen to mostly classical music myself and hundreds of CD's and never had a problem with my CD players on this.

 

I don't have a problem on CD players either. I also have no problem with cassette tape or vinyl. But I did with the PS Audio Bridge. That is a pause which should NOT be there between tracks.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by john57 View Post
 

Why this became a problem after 30 years? 

 

I dunno. I supposed it's because Paul@PSA promised his customers that their Bridge would support playback without artificial pauses between tracks which were not supposed to be there. I waited over a year through several firmware revisions. What was promised never happened while I was waiting.


Edited by purrin - 3/2/14 at 9:43am
post #667 of 6360
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kothganesh View Post


Same here. I was using USB from laptop to SPDIF. Last week, I switched to the USB on the Gungnir and am not looking back.

 

USB Gen 2 on Gungnir all the way. I compared again OR5 and coax. OR5 is the best, but it's $1300 or more. USB Gen 2 is extremely close to OR5.

post #668 of 6360
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MayaTlab View Post

 

Although I'm not too convinced by Sabre-based DACs, I have the exact opposite experience in terms of grain / rasp / etch, although I'd be the first one to agree that there is a certain glare / unnatural leanness / lack of meat / perfectible timbre accuracy in their presentation (a little like old electrostatic headphones). Compared to my Lavry DA11, I found both the Benchmark DAC2 and Invicta to sound more refined / delicate / smoother in the trebles. I'm not saying they're the best in terms of refined trebles, but so far I've yet to hear better. To me, grain means that instead of a high-hat going "zing", it sort of sounds like it goes "schrzing". Rasp means that vocals, for example, would be throaty - in that regard I've found the sabre DAC I've heard vastly different. The Benchmark DAC2 felt as liquid as it can get, the Invicta less so, but not anymore than the Lavry. Etch means that we would get something akin to the Clarity filter in Lightroom / Photoshop, i.e. details artificially put forward - and again this is not my experience with the sabre DACs I've heard in comparison to a Violectric V800, a Benchmark DAC1 or the Lavry.

The main thing I dislike with them is their timbre rendition (but it's the same with the Violectric IMHO, which sounds very close to the Benchmark, and yet doesn't have a sabre DAC inside), everything sounds a little "synthesised" in one way or another, especially the Benchmark, and the fact that they all feel less meaty / weighty than the Lavry (although the Invicta gets quite close, at least more than the Violectric V800 I think).

 

I too find it sad that we're mostly seeing sabre-based DACs only these days, and I'd really like to see R2R Dacs widely available one day.

 

It's important to understand that I am talking generalities. I have not heard the DAC2. I have heard the Invicta and it would appear that the designers went through some lengths to tame the typical SABRE sound. The Invicta has more warmth and body compared to many other DACs SABRE or otherwise. I still insist however that there is a bit of unnatural stridency in the treble of the Invicta once you isolate its treble aspects from the Invicta's warmth and full bodied sound - which tends to mask a lot of things. In other words, I don't let the warmth and body of the Invicta fool me of its SABREness. 

 

That being said, the Invicta handles the treble portion better than probably all other SABRE DACs I've heard. A bit of stridency is much much better than last octave mechanical rasp of most Chinese SABRE DACs, or hard glaring sonic death rays of the Mytek. My beef with the Invicta was with mostly with poor bass articulation, poor bass pitch differentiation, congestion, and lack of cohesiveness between the lower and upper registers. (Given it's price and rave reviews, it actually took me months for me to admit that I really did not like the Invicta.)

 

Also, the fact that I feel 85% of SABRE implementations are horribad in terms of treble timbre. grain, lack of continuousness, etc. does not mean that other delta-sigma DACs cannot be equally horribad. Heck, I do not even like the PWD2 running the 2.10/2.20 firmwares.

 

And even then, R2R is not a panacea. While I appreciated certain attributes of the HM-801 and Metrum Quad, they were too far laid back and not resolving enough for my tastes.


Edited by purrin - 3/2/14 at 10:18am
post #669 of 6360
Quote:
Originally Posted by purrin View Post
 

 

It's important to understand that I am talking generalities. I have not heard the DAC2. I have heard the Invicta and it would appear that the designers went through some lengths to tame the typical SABRE sound. The Invicta has more warmth and body compared to many other DACs SABRE or otherwise. I still insist however that there is a bit of unnatural stridency in the treble of the Invicta once you isolate its treble aspects from the Invicta's warmth and full bodied sound - which tends to mask a lot of things. In other words, I don't let the warmth and body of the Invicta fool me of its SABREness. That being said, the Invicta handles the treble portion better than probably all other SABRE DACs I've heard. A bit of stridency is much much better than last octave mechanical rasp of most Chinese SABRE DACs, or hard glaring sonic death days of the Mytek. My beef with the Invicta was with mostly other things.

 

Also, the fact that I feel 85% of SABRE implementations are horribad in treble timbre. grain, lack of continuousness, etc. does not mean that other delta-sigma DACs cannot be equally horribad. Heck, I do not even like the PWD2 running the 2.10/2.20 firmwares.

 

I understand that you're talking generalities, but as far as my very limited experience goes, I too was talking in generalities - so far the two sabre DACs I've heard felt more refined / delicate / smooth up top than the other DACs I've heard. Perhaps it's because I've avoided the most sabrish sabre DACs around while picking up the most sabrish sabre-less DACs around ? Although the Benchmark sounded to me like what I thought was a typical sabre-sounding DAC reading reviews of the Anedio for example, meaning smooth, refined, but lean and thin, and relative to the Lavry I didn't find the Invicta exactly full-bodied. Perhaps I should try to hear the Mytek one day so that I understand better what you mean.

 

The only experience I had with a R2R DAC was with an Hifiman HM-801 and I didn't find it particularly refined up top - but perhaps that wasn't the most relevant example of such DACs. It's too bad we don't have more of those hanging without having to go through the hassle of fine-tuning an Audio GD with external USB receivers and other devices or paying more for resistance - based R2R DACs such as the Totaldac.

post #670 of 6360
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MayaTlab View Post
 

Perhaps it's because I've avoided the most sabrish sabre DACs around while picking up the most sabrish sabre-less DACs around ?

 

LOL, I think that's what happened.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by MayaTlab View Post

 

It's too bad we don't have more of those hanging without having to go through the hassle of fine-tuning an Audio GD with external USB receivers and other devices or paying more for resistance - based R2R DACs such as the Totaldac.

 

Yeah, I get you on that. That's why I'm hopeful on the Schiit Yggy. The M7 is 35 pounds, sucks energy like crazy, and still needs tweaks such as the OR5 or a great transport to sound its best. 

 

Has anyone had the chance to hear the Naim R2R DAC? Looks like a good design and not too pricey either. (Someone PM'd me on this DAC.)


Edited by purrin - 3/2/14 at 10:31am
post #671 of 6360
Quote:
Originally Posted by purrin View Post
 

 

OK. Timeout. You are confusing me. I don't think you understand what gapless is. Do you care to offer your definition of what you think it is?

 

 

I don't have a problem on CD players either. I also have no problem with cassette tape or vinyl. But I did with the PS Audio Bridge. That is a pause which should NOT be there between tracks.

 

 

I dunno. I supposed it's because Paul@PSA promised his customers that their Bridge would support playback without artificial pauses between tracks which were not supposed to be there. I waited over a year through several firmware revisions. What was promised never happened while I was waiting.

Now you just show a example that might make some sense that there is a issue with the PSA bridge. Maybe our definition of gaped playback is different. Lets start with gaped playback. I have many CD's that have pauses with a specific number of seconds that you can see the count down timer on the CD display put into between the tracks. Noticed that I said count down not the normal count up on the display. Within the CD specifications there is a feature called index marks within the track that allows the CD player to jump to a special position on the track that is normally gapless. Very few CD's  are made with indexing and players with indexing displays are rare and I happen to have one. Sometime the pauses deliberate put in are long like 11 seconds in some cases and I have to wait for the count down timer before my CD player will play the next track. This happens with that particular CD disk using a stand-alone player or my computer DVD player. When I rip the CD's to the computer the pause countdown timer that is put in by the engineer is stripped away from the CD's I recently acquired a stereo network player that has DLNA using the Ethernet and I noticed that there is a min fixed pause time between the tracks. Is that the gaps we are talking about?    

post #672 of 6360
Yes
post #673 of 6360

Any thoughts on where the McIntosh D100 fits in?

post #674 of 6360

John57 - you're correct for the most part. Basically if a media player has gapless playback, the rip should play like the CD - - if songs on a CD seque from one track to another with no break in the music on the CD (or album), then a player with gapless playback will do the same. 

 

The problem with PSA's Bridge is that it could/can only play one track at a time and breaks are inserted where they don't belong. So with albums like Dark Side of the Moon or most of side two of Abbey Road, instead of songs flowing into another, the Bridge inserts gaps of silence where there shouldn't be any. 

post #675 of 6360
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7ryder View Post

.........So with albums like Dark Side of the Moon or most of side two of Abbey Road, instead of songs flowing into another, the Bridge inserts gaps of silence where there shouldn't be any. 
Thanks. These examples drive home the point.
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