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Thoughts on a bunch of DACs (and why delta-sigma kinda sucks, just to get you to think about stuff) - Page 36  

post #526 of 6360
Thread Starter 

I wrote something up a while back on the M7's new USB firmware. The post got buried by the avalanche of the recent banter. In a nutshell, the new USB is slightly better, but not anything transformative.

 

See this post: http://www.head-fi.org/t/693798/ranking-of-21-dacs-and-dac-configurations-and-why-chocolate-ice-cream-must-die/390#post_10205588

post #527 of 6360
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dan.gheorghe View Post
 

Haven't had your experience with so many dacs, and only listened to MSB Analog Dac which is no delta sigma, but what I have heard matches exactly your thoughts! I've heard many implementations of delta sigma dacs from 100 eur to 10k. There were differences, of course, but after a point the differences were too little for the money. I think that over a point, no matter how good is the implementation is, they are limited by the chips themselves. This is just a guess, so I may be wrong, of course. 

 

Oh no, you are certainly are not wrong. If you think about it, it begins with the chip (well actually it begins at the recording). Everything else in the DAC is meant to support the chip: receiving digital data, digital filtering, feeding the chip, analog filtering, converting/buffering the signal so it can feed line level inputs, etc.

 

I like the MSB DACs too. There's a reason why we see so many MSB or other R2R type DACs at the audio shows. Some people don't mind that "digital" or delta-sigma sound at all. This is really what I see as the source of most disagreement regarding how the DACs are rated here.


Edited by purrin - 2/13/14 at 10:30am
post #528 of 6360

Interesting though the OR5 is out of my range of $$$$   dunno where I read that a OR6 was coming?

post #529 of 6360
Thread Starter 

Just wait for Schiit's uber DAC. Knowing Mike Moffat and how he rails against DSD, PWM, sigma-delta, 1-bit, saying that such methods are not accurate enough to be employed for missiles or medical devices, I would assume that their uber DAC would be something along the lines of R2R, or if it wasn't, it would sound just like R2R.

 

They already have a fine USB solution with their Gen 2, and I would assume they would try to top that with their TOTL.


Edited by purrin - 2/13/14 at 10:37am
post #530 of 6360

I did not even notice he puts the mytek in class "s" as  well. he insults the Marantz flagship but "likes it". the most important thing he said was his precursor to all the reviews. this is all personal preference. I would not let anything anyone "says" persuade you, or dissuade you. the differences are subtle here. I feel one needs to listen for themselves or purchase with a return policy. furthermore it is best to be able to compare more than one device in your price range with your equipment in your residence. I can't stress enough that this stuff is not clear cut night and day that anyone can hear. this is very personal and one must decide for themselves. I am by no means insulting purrin. in fact I commend him for what he has done here. so please do not take my statements that way. where we do agree is his top tier. I feel that is good stuff as well. however I am telling you not to take my word for it either. on the other hand I do appreciate this much more than stereo magazines. there has yet to be any stereo component that is so great it can be universally recommended period. there are too many variables. your ears for starters. I also commend him for honesty as he sees it even in the top tier. again,unlike stereo magazines that polish everything they say. which is obviously in their best interest. when one gets to the point they have a relationship with a regular salesperson they can sort of trust/him her. before that point I would not go by their recommendations either. luckily any decent store has a return policy. which leads me to buying demos. always a good idea if possible the way this equipment depreciates. I mean no offence to anyone. I feel I am giving good advice. I know many of you are like,duh! I posted this because there are plenty of others that either fall victim and be unhappy or be elated. for those individuals it would be a toss up if they disregard my principles. like the lottery. anyways, I do appreciate what you have done purrin.

post #531 of 6360
mega-paragraphs-must-be-aliens.jpg
post #532 of 6360

LOL

post #533 of 6360

let it be known, grammar is not my strong suit! okay, I got a little carried away. oopsie.

 

I just realized something. perhaps purrin could have thought the teac is better than it was. the headphone amp is okay,not great. using the balanced outputs is a must. 44.1/16, other dacs easily beat it in the $1,000 range. upsample to dsd 2x through the balanced outputs and (if you like the sound) this is where this dac shines. of course purists with nos r2r dacs may feel that is "cheating". pretty much the same goes for the mytek. so depending on how he was using these he may have been more impressed. I have completely modified the teac now so it is an entirely different beast. if one plans to use either of these with a redbook transport mainly I agree, look elsewhere. as well with the headphone amps. so perhaps we actually agree! 


Edited by music_man - 2/14/14 at 12:59am
post #534 of 6360
Thread Starter 

LOL yeah, I indicated the PCM constraints in that post first. Good reminder for all:

 

Warning:  ...

 

Although some DACs were DSD capable, we used PCM to evaluate the DACs because despite our combined extensive SACD collections, 99% of our content was still in PCM.

 

 

I did mention that there were reports that the Mytek sounded better with DSD. (I have not verified this.) Same thing with X-Sabre and Vega, but both of those DACs more than hold their own with PCM. It didn't occur to me to run DSD through the Teac. For me, although I own a significant amount of SACDs, DSD is a non-consideration. Here is a little story: a real story.

 

I was at 2014 THE SHOW where I was listening to a setup with the Mytek DSD DAC. I remarked to the rep: "This doesn't sound good. I know that DAC's characteristics and I'm not a big fan. Why use that DAC when the associated equipment around it is much more expensive and of better sound quality?"

 

Rep: "Well, you really need the best quality sources, DSD, for it to shine."

 

Me: "Do you have any DSD on that laptop?"

 

Rep: "No."

 

Me: "I have some good recordings here (both PCM and DSD), can I play any of my stuff?"

 

Rep: "No."


Edited by purrin - 2/14/14 at 10:03am
post #535 of 6360

It always rubs me the wrong way when reps refuse to let you test things (safely) the way you want. These people expect you to drop thousands of dollars without a thought. 

post #536 of 6360
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by music_man View Post

 

upsample to dsd 2x through the balanced outputs and (if you like the sound) this is where this dac shines. of course purists with nos r2r dacs may feel that is "cheating". 

 

That's a good point you've brought up.

 

To follow up, and something I forgot to mention: Some of these DSD compatible DACs tend to have poor internal hardware conversion from PCM to DSD / sigma-delta. I find that converting PCM (even 16/44) to DSD in real time, i.e. via JMRC19 playback software provides better, or at least different sound. 

 

I wouldn't consider this cheating, and wasn't I was totally cognizant of when these comparos were started.


Edited by purrin - 2/14/14 at 11:03am
post #537 of 6360

@purrin - Slight OT here, but feel free to reply via PM if you wish. How are you liking your OB's with a 15in. sub, and how are you crossing them over? I've tried 12 and 15s, but I like the detail my TOTL 8in. sub gives me. Do you get that detailed sound with your 15in.? I also noticed you're using REW, is that through JRMC to your favorite DAC? Thanks in advance :)

post #538 of 6360

okay purrin we finally agree! cool. I am using jriver 19. I did not realize the software is doing the conversion but I just checked it out. I guess that does not say a whole lot about the teac after all but it is not exactly a expensive dac either. the pcm like you ran it through coax on the rca's is mediocre. highly modified the dac is very good. so people that are into projects could consider it I guess. the mytek is a lot like the bm dac1. I think it intends to be. not the most musical device. what I might do with $1,600 is buy a modded teac off the net. of course you are looking at no warranty and possible failure. I wish the pwd mkii was 2 grand new. that would be a game changer. I am not in the market I am just stating my feelings.

 

they never let me test stuff at ces. I understand their feeling. you could damage something,change something or just embarrass them lol.

 

sorry for the super long post before.

post #539 of 6360
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by brunk View Post
 

@purrin - Slight OT here, but feel free to reply via PM if you wish. How are you liking your OB's with a 15in. sub, and how are you crossing them over? I've tried 12 and 15s, but I like the detail my TOTL 8in. sub gives me. Do you get that detailed sound with your 15in.? I also noticed you're using REW, is that through JRMC to your favorite DAC? Thanks in advance :)

 

Actually it's x2 15" woofers x-over'd @200Hz LR24. Using cheap $79 Eminence Betas. It's really just a proof-of-concept which I plan on expanding. I would say the Betas can't quite keep up with the Cicada drivers, but I also wouldn't call the Betas slow sounding either. The Mojo's preouts are being fed to a DCX2496 and then into a Crest CA2 power amp. Currently not running a sub. I want to see how low I can go without subs. So far getting extension down to 35Hz. I'll probably end up replacing the Betas with these: http://www.aespeakers.com/drivers.php?driver_id=32

 


Edited by purrin - 2/14/14 at 7:20pm
post #540 of 6360
Quote:
Originally Posted by purrin View Post
 

 

Actually it's x2 15" woofers x-over'd @200Hz LR24. Using cheap $79 Eminence Betas. It's really just a proof-of-concept which I plan on expanding. I would say the Betas can't quite keep up with the Cicada drivers, but I also wouldn't call the Betas slow sounding either. The Mojo's preouts are being fed to a DCX2496 and then into a Crest CA2 power amp. The sub right now is out of the mix. I want to see how low I can go without the subs. I'll probably end up replacing the Betas with these: http://www.aespeakers.com/drivers.php?driver_id=32

 

Cool, thanks for the info. Those look nice :) I'm currently using Fostex FE206En in a BK20 enclosure with T90a supertweets. I too will be using a LR24 analog active at 10khz. I am thinking to just use the RCA-out of the DAC to the subs and use their crossover for themselves by ear. If you can think of an alternative solution I am all ears. Will you be testing the Yggdrasil when released by chance?

 

 Here's the project I'm working on. It's 4x LPUHP (16w) with analog active x-overs using OPA4227 :)

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

 

 

 

 

:beerchug: 

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