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Thoughts on a bunch of DACs (and why delta-sigma kinda sucks, just to get you to think about stuff) - Page 238  

post #3556 of 6360
Quote:
Originally Posted by wahsmoh View Post
 


I doubt I could even compare the pricing of the Progeny or any older R2R in absolute terms to the pricing of a car. The Progeny takes parts from a $6000+ DAC when it was brand new and utilizes them in a single-ended setup while still having two separate transformers for analog and digital section. The Progeny when new was $1000-1200. It still kicks the crap out of the newer DACs in terms of absolute sound quality and PCB design.

 

I'm not going to elaborate any further but we can all bow down to Schiit and Mike and Jason for even attempting such a daring feat at less than $5000. ($2300) man that is a bargain considering you get 4 chips that each cost over $80 a piece in dual mono

 

Post redacted because I get the feeling you're trolling me.

post #3557 of 6360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillhart View Post
 

 

Post redacted because I get the feeling you're trolling me.


Hehe well the Progeny is technically a DAC under $1000. ($995 listed MSRP in 1994) try building it with todays inflation at that price lmao. btw there is one on eBay that has already hit $300 + shipping and it isn't even the version A. These things really hold value too.

 

btw just plugged in the Bifrost Uber and took a listen.. I was saddened.. I mean it doesn't sound harsh but then when the cymbals come crashing down and the "studio magic" like the effects and separation of instruments starts to become noticeable the Bifrost is lacking and doesn't have as clear and defined image and "black space" defining certain sounds. The Bifrost Uber starts to mash instruments together when passages get really complex. I listened for 5 minutes and couldn't take it anymore and hooked up the Progeny again now permanently


Edited by wahsmoh - 4/2/15 at 12:10pm
post #3558 of 6360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillhart View Post
 

 

Barring the LH Labs products, which are laughably optimistic on the MSRP, you're comparing some very expensive R2R DAC's to D-S DAC's that cost half as much or less.  I have yet to see any R2R proponents suggesting things that cost less than a grand.  

 

Yes, we all realize your Ferrari is better than my WRX in almost every way.  But for a normal mortal, the WRX is pretty great performance for the money!

Multibit PCM dacs can be done under 500$, the time is just yet to come because majority is happy with S-D. 

Diy guys have done it with discrete means, now picture a whole modern chip dedicated to audio. 

post #3559 of 6360
Quote:
Originally Posted by wahsmoh View Post
 


Hehe well the Progeny is technically a DAC under $1000. ($995 listed MSRP in 1994) try building it with todays inflation at that price lmao. btw there is one on eBay that has already hit $300 + shipping and it isn't even the version A. These things really hold value too.

 

btw just plugged in the Bifrost Uber and took a listen.. I was saddened.. I mean it doesn't sound harsh but then when the cymbals come crashing down and the "studio magic" like the effects and separation of instruments starts to become noticeable the Bifrost is lacking and doesn't have as clear and defined image and "black space" defining certain sounds. The Bifrost Uber starts to mash instruments together when passages get really complex. I listened for 5 minutes and couldn't take it anymore and hooked up the Progeny again now permanently

 

FWIW the Inflation Calculator has 995 1994 dollars at $1575 in 2015, but given that every cost in the supply chain would have gone up I suspect we'd be talking something closer to the projected sticker on the Yggy. If they can sort the filter issues with the Soekris board that might be a more feasible ~1K R2R DAC in 2015, but the DiY guys rarely attempt to factor in the cost of their labor in any such build. If something costs $800 in parts, it doesnt seem to matter how many hours went into the design or any subsequent refinements - that's an '$800 DAC' to many DiYers. Still its an interesting project to follow - it will also be interesting to see if anyone else is prepared to do something similar commercially. 

 

http://www.usinflationcalculator.com

post #3560 of 6360
Quote:
Originally Posted by estreeter View Post
 

 

FWIW the Inflation Calculator has 995 1994 dollars at $1575 in 2015, but given that every cost in the supply chain would have gone up I suspect we'd be talking something closer to the projected sticker on the Yggy. If they can sort the filter issues with the Soekris board that might be a more feasible ~1K R2R DAC in 2015, but the DiY guys rarely attempt to factor in the cost of their labor in any such build. If something costs $800 in parts, it doesnt seem to matter how many hours went into the design or any subsequent refinements - that's an '$800 DAC' to many DiYers. Still its an interesting project to follow - it will also be interesting to see if anyone else is prepared to do something similar commercially. 

 

http://www.usinflationcalculator.com


I recall Mike mentioning the number of Yggys they plan on producing. It goes into the thousands I think.. so that is the only way to make something like that profitable is to make a ton of them and streamline the process as much as they can

post #3561 of 6360
Quote:
Originally Posted by estreeter View Post
 

 

FWIW the Inflation Calculator has 995 1994 dollars at $1575 in 2015, but given that every cost in the supply chain would have gone up I suspect we'd be talking something closer to the projected sticker on the Yggy. If they can sort the filter issues with the Soekris board that might be a more feasible ~1K R2R DAC in 2015, but the DiY guys rarely attempt to factor in the cost of their labor in any such build. If something costs $800 in parts, it doesnt seem to matter how many hours went into the design or any subsequent refinements - that's an '$800 DAC' to many DiYers. Still its an interesting project to follow - it will also be interesting to see if anyone else is prepared to do something similar commercially. 

 

http://www.usinflationcalculator.com

And,if you remember,how many years the Yiggy was in its planning stage,long before ,it began to actually start to be built.

How much would it cost us today...$4-5K??

So,if Jason does list it next week,and all the 250 units sell in 1 month,we won't be getting any   feedback ,for at least another month,maybe?

Having Jason give us a "state of the Art" dac for $2299-,is simply amazing...IMHO.

Just a few  wrinkles to iron out,that's all.


Edited by mikek200 - 4/2/15 at 4:33pm
post #3562 of 6360
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillhart View Post
 

 

Barring the LH Labs products, which are laughably optimistic on the MSRP, you're comparing some very expensive R2R DAC's to D-S DAC's that cost half as much or less.  I have yet to see any R2R proponents suggesting things that cost less than a grand.  

 

Yes, we all realize your Ferrari is better than my WRX in almost every way.  But for a normal mortal, the WRX is pretty great performance for the money!

 

I know this thread is about SQ in absolute terms, so price isn't really a factor.  But I feel like the R2R proponents sometimes forget that we can't all afford the Yggy or Theta or whatever.  Maybe you've forgotten how bad some DACs can get... when's the last time you tried using your Abyss right out of your laptop or phone, even with a nice amp?

 

Sorry, it just rubs me the wrong way a little bit when people are so dismissive of the ONLY DAC's available under $1000.

 

Price is always a factor. Go down the list in the first post and realize the cost of some of the D-S DACs. $8000, $6000, $4000, $3000, etc. I have hunch we may see more R2R DACs at lower prices. Other manufacturers will take note of what Schiit is doing. I can see Analog Devices realize the high volume of sales of the AD5791 and decide to make a high precision chip for audio. Will it always be as cheap at D-S DACs? Probably not. But I see no reason once R2R chips become more widely available and easily used for audio, a company like Emotiva can't make a $799 DAC. Moffat during his presentation at CanJam already hinted at Bifrost and Gungnir while wearing this "Delta-Sigma, when music doesn't matter" T-shirt.

post #3563 of 6360
Quote:
Originally Posted by purrin View Post
 

 

Moffat during his presentation at CanJam already hinted at Bifrost and Gungnir while wearing this "Delta-Sigma, when music doesn't matter" T-shirt.

Wait, what? Are you suggesting there may be trickle down upgrades to Bifrost and Gungnir?

post #3564 of 6360
Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgjy View Post
 

Wait, what? Are you suggesting there may be trickle down upgrades to Bifrost and Gungnir?


sounds like it to me. 

post #3565 of 6360
Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgjy View Post
 

Wait, what? Are you suggesting there may be trickle down upgrades to Bifrost and Gungnir?

 

Why wouldn't there be?  Isn't that the whole point of touting the upgradability of those DAC's?

post #3566 of 6360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillhart View Post
 

 

Why wouldn't there be?  Isn't that the whole point of touting the upgradability of those DAC's?

That's what I was thinking, but isn't the DA converter hardwired to the PCB? I thought the cards were only for the output stage and USB input stage. I could be wrong, though.

post #3567 of 6360
Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgjy View Post
 

That's what I was thinking, but isn't the DA converter hardwired to the PCB? I thought the cards were only for the output stage and USB input stage. I could be wrong, though.


per schiit's site:

 

Quote:
 Worried about rapidly-changing USB input technology? Concerned about future advances in D/A conversion? Gungnir’s modular design uses separate, USB Input and DAC/Analog cards. When USB technology changes, we can simply drop in a new, better USB Input Card. When meaningful upgrades to D/A converters come out, we can drop in a new DAC/Analog Card. The result? A virtually future-proof DAC that won't end up in the dumpster.
post #3568 of 6360

I took my time with commenting on my experience, but a while ago I felt like taking the punt to buy a Theta DAC, even if just to see if Purrin is talking out his arse basically. And because, well I bought more stupid and more expensive products in the past, so why not.

 

I was lucky enough to get my hands on my first Gen V A about 5-6 months ago, while owning the PWD2. The latter was a DAC I really enjoyed. It is difficult to convey to my friends who have not experienced an R2R DAC at any length, why I think the R2R sound is a transformational experience. To me it is NOT just another DAC.

 

I will start with what I did not fully know bothered me. One of the greatest assets R2R brings to the table is that treble response is a completely different experience. No matter what headphones or speakers. It just is no longer harsh, grainy or in the slightest unpleasant at any level. No matter what. You can try really hard. Throw silver at it. I did.

Stax SR-009 a walk in the park - absolute love even with poor recordings.

HE-6 - why would anyone in the world consider these headphones to have even the slightest brightness.

 

On the PWD2, which is one of the decent sounding S/Ds, sometimes I still had tune my system so it sounds nice enough for me in the treble, even with the Audeze LCD-3s. And that is not one of the brightest S/D DACs by a large margin imo.

 

And now the shock as it may be. The macro detail on the Theta R2R DAC was actually on par with the PWD2. Yes, one can have both: perfectly detailed yet natural, non-aggresive treble response AND overall great detail. 

 

However all this to me is only the tip of the iceberg. Actually my first reaction to the Theta, was more like.... holy f*** the bass response and sound stage holography. Those are immediate. They always are with any gear though, when it's there. Comparatively the PWD2 sounded hollow. To most other S/D DACs I heard it was not. The R2R DAC also has this amazing natural body and tonal purity. A piano sounds so real and so does a violin. I did not used to think of it that way, but I almost had an instinctive fast forward reflex to trumpet heavy tracks. But yes, they actually can and should be enjoyable. To some extent one could almost get to re-remember how instruments actually sound and what has been missed.

 

Now about the Yggdrasil, I could be in two minds. From one perspective, I was not impressed by the Ragnarok, which was another very hyped product, so I could easily be biased. To me the Ragnarok sounded almost veiled, by having that added smoothness layer that I found it has. I kept reading about the clarity and resolution it has. I did not find that, comparatively, with either my speaker amp, the Audio GD HE-9 or the Moon 430HA. All those amps I found to be more resolute, more clear, more articulate, more transparent. Yet all sounding very different from each other. To be fair the Ragnarok is priced OK for what it offers. No wonder product there for me though.

 

However, this should have little to do with the DAC product. A modern day R2R DAC at a palatable price is more than welcome by me. I think I will buy it right away, even if to support a point made. I want more R2R DACs out there.


Edited by negura - 4/2/15 at 6:59pm
post #3569 of 6360
Quote:
Originally Posted by kugino View Post
 


per schiit's site:

 

Cool. Thanks for the clarification. 

post #3570 of 6360
Quote:
Originally Posted by kugino View Post


sounds like it to me. 
A uber Gungnir hmmm. That would be fantastic.
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