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Ranking of 21 DACs and DAC Configurations (and why chocolate ice cream must die) - Page 38

post #556 of 1002

okay that's cool. for some reason I did not realize you were joking.

post #557 of 1002

I get that a lot. 

 

:beerchug:

post #558 of 1002

Only just seen this, am I the only one surprised to see no mention

of the Audiolab M-DAC?

 

Is it considered old fashioned and out of date now??

 

Or maybe it's just not that popular outside of the UK

post #559 of 1002

Send one to Purrin and he'll add it, I'm sure.

 

We should put a collection together to fund this scientific study! :)

post #560 of 1002
Quote:
Originally Posted by purrin View Post
 

Just wait for Schiit's uber DAC. Knowing Mike Moffat and how he rails against DSD, PWM, sigma-delta, 1-bit, saying that such methods are not accurate enough to be employed for missiles or medical devices, I would assume that their uber DAC would be something along the lines of R2R, or if it wasn't, it would sound just like R2R.

 

They already have a fine USB solution with their Gen 2, and I would assume they would try to top that with their TOTL.

 

 

This is what I am waiting for. I like the Schiit sound and the sound of the Bifrost,  but it left me as being a little too unrefined and I am using the X-Sabre until something else comes along. I would love to have a super clean sounding ultra Bifrost and I hope that's what the Yggdrasil might be.

 

Aside from that, the DACs I would like to try are:

 

Bryston BDA-2 - AKM4399 and XMOS

 

PWD MK II - But it's $4000

 

Schiit Yggdrasil - Doesn't exist yet

 

Anything else?

post #561 of 1002
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanlitun View Post

PWD MK II - But it's $4000

No one pays that much for the PWD though, street price is quite a bit lower than that
post #562 of 1002

they have pwd mkii demos for 2-2.5 grand.

 

guys I have a question and I can't believe I am asking this. is there a dac that is very small in physical size but considered serious stuff? it does not have to do dsd but I like that. I mean like not more than 10" square and 5" tall.  like in the 2-6 grand price range.  I know the bm dac2 and stereo192 etc but I mean better than those. something that is not only sold online though. it seems most of the good ones are full components and then some.

 

edit: it has to have balanced and rca. does not require headamp.


Edited by music_man - 2/17/14 at 9:36pm
post #563 of 1002
Quote:
Originally Posted by music_man View Post
 

they have pwd mkii demos for 2-2.5 grand.

 

guys I have a question and I can't believe I am asking this. is there a dac that is very small in physical size but considered serious stuff? it does not have to do dsd but I like that. I mean like not more than 10" square and 5" tall.  like in the 2-6 grand price range.  I know the bm dac2 and stereo192 etc but I mean better than those. something that is not only sold online though. it seems most of the good ones are full components and then some.

 

edit: it has to have balanced and rca. does not require headamp.

Resonessence Mirus and Invicta, Playback Designs MPD-3, Lindemann Music Book 10-15 Series and the Exasound e22. 

post #564 of 1002

thank you brunk.

 

afaik all of those can only be purchased online. I guess I need to get with the times already. the only one I knew about was the exasound which I have had my eyes on. the other look good too. of course I think purrin does not like sabre either. that's alright, I do lol. I thought about the wadia 121 but read many reports of them locking up etc. plus not dsd.

 

if you look back at what I did to the teac I am thinking these are still in a different league. i really don't know. that's why i was wanting easy access to them.

post #565 of 1002
Quote:
Originally Posted by purrin View Post
 

LOL, that one was slightly surprising to me.

 

I didn't think the DSD128 "decimated" to 44.1 and reconverted back to DSD128 would sound exactly the same as the original DSD128. I couldn't distinguish between them in sighted tests. I couldn't distinguish between them in single blind tests either (conducted by my wife this morning). 

How did the 44.1 sound compared to the upsampled versions? Also if the upsampled redbook is as good as hi-res do we need these hi-res versions at all? Cheers!

post #566 of 1002

since i rediscovered dsd now on a computer i prefer redbook upsampled to dsd128-dsd512. i like it better than redbook upsampled to 24/192 which i originally preferred. i hope to hear from purrin on this too. i have not experimented with 32/384 up to 35/1.5mhz. the thing is i think we all want analog sound and dsd is closer to analog. 1 bit is playable through analog amps so i am told. i felt upsampled redbook and an actual dsd recording were about the same.

post #567 of 1002
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by REXNFX View Post
 

How did the 44.1 sound compared to the upsampled versions? Also if the upsampled redbook is as good as hi-res do we need these hi-res versions at all? Cheers!

 

44.1 (not converted to anything else) straight into the DSD DAC sounded microdynamically flatter than same 44.1 upconverted to DSDx2. This was my observation of the Vega DAC. The Vega DAC also handled 44.1 upsampled to 192 or DXD just as good as DSD. The X-Sabre handled DSD better than any kind of PCM. The differences were minor though with these DACs, i.e. less than the difference between any two DACs, which in many cases really isn't that significant to begin with.

 

If I had a DSD DAC, it's probably a good bet to always have JRMC convert to DSD and feeding that DSD DAC using DoP.

post #568 of 1002

wow purrin! you have really surprised me. I guess we just had a misunderstanding originally. you and i mostly agree on how dacs should be used. I even bet if you retried the teac the way I said you would not think it is class "s" either. it certainly is not a pwd mkii either for that matter. well, stock at least. I think dsd dacs mostly they really focused on the dsd. so I do not think it is a proper comparison. a dac like the bryston or McIntosh will sound plenty good at 24/192. the msb on the other hand just sounds good at everything and it better.

post #569 of 1002
Quote:
Originally Posted by music_man View Post
 

since i rediscovered dsd now on a computer i prefer redbook upsampled to dsd128-dsd512. i like it better than redbook upsampled to 24/192 which i originally preferred. i hope to hear from purrin on this too. i have not experimented with 32/384 up to 35/1.5mhz. the thing is i think we all want analog sound and dsd is closer to analog. 1 bit is playable through analog amps so i am told. i felt upsampled redbook and an actual dsd recording were about the same.

My impression of redbook upsampled to dsd 64:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/693798/ranking-of-21-dacs-and-dac-configurations-and-why-chocolate-ice-cream-must-die/315#post_10172232

In short, I can feel big differences.  The converted DSD is smoothed out in the highs, contains less information.  It sounds smooth, but not really natural.   So I still prefer 44.1k.

People also did experiments of converting redbook to LP disc.  And the playback of LP sounds very different from redbook.  And many people prefer the converted LP.

 

My impression of redbook vs high res PCM vs DSD:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/693798/ranking-of-21-dacs-and-dac-configurations-and-why-chocolate-ice-cream-must-die/345#post_10182975

In short, I prefer high res (both PCM and DSD) than redbook for sure.      And I slightly prefer high res PCM (>=192k Hz) over DSD.

 

And recently I started to try SACD recordings, so far I found ~50% of them are true high res, ~25% of them clearly the same as redbook,  ~25% I am not sure.    I think it's due to some publishers/labels are not honest.     So if purrin happened to sample some bad SACDs, then it will lead to the conclusion that DSD no better than redbook.   


Edited by yfei - 2/18/14 at 12:44pm
post #570 of 1002
Quote:
Originally Posted by yfei View Post
 

My impression of redbook upsampled to dsd 64:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/693798/ranking-of-21-dacs-and-dac-configurations-and-why-chocolate-ice-cream-must-die/315#post_10172232

In short, I can feel big differences.  The converted DSD is smoothed out in the highs, contains less information.  It sounds smooth, but not really natural.   So I still prefer 44.1k.

People also did experiments of converting redbook to LP disc.  And the playback of LP sounds very different from redbook.  And many people prefer the converted LP.

 

My impression of redbook vs high res PCM vs DSD:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/693798/ranking-of-21-dacs-and-dac-configurations-and-why-chocolate-ice-cream-must-die/345#post_10182975

In short, I prefer high res (both PCM and DSD) than redbook for sure.      And I slightly prefer high res PCM (>=192k Hz) over DSD.

 

And recently I started to try SACD recordings, so far I found ~50% of them are true high res, ~25% of them clearly the same as redbook,  ~25% I am not sure.    I think it's due to some publishers/labels are not honest.     So if purrin happened to sample some bad SACDs, then it will lead to the conclusion that DSD no better than redbook.   

 

This pretty much mirrors what I had found when I tried all of this out with the X-Sabre. Upsampling to DSD seems to smooth out the highs and the attack somewhat, and upsampling to DSDx2 just makes mashed potatoes out of the original track.

 

This page is extremely interesting in this regard and I don't know if it has been posted here previously: PCM to DSD Upsampling Effects

 

I have a Cary 303/300 CD player that has an upsampler button (all the way to 768kHz lol) on it and the effect is similar. It just becomes fuzzy in a slightly pleasant manner.

 

Now I have found that some native DSD files (Pink Floyd's Wish you were here and the LSO Beethoven series) sound very very good through the X-Sabre. So I gather that part of the issue may be how well JRiver can do the DSD encoding on the fly. It's hard to imagine that it isn't some sort of noisy or lossy process. It might be more interesting to see what happens with a better DSD converter.

 

This is all pretty much academic for me as my only interest in DSD is at those times when there is no hi-res PCM alternative.

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