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On a mission to like jazz - Page 18

post #256 of 778
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post

But do you like contemporary atonal jazz?

I could never get past John Coltrane's Ascension.
It's not really my kind of music.
post #257 of 778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post

I could never get past John Coltrane's Ascension.
It's not really my kind of music.

One of my favorite albums of all time. As far as free jazz goes, I actually find it rather conservative to be honest. When you listen to it enough I find it to have a surprising amount of structure to it and that it's actually still clearly quite rooted in the traditions of bop and other jazz that came before. Truly a watershed work. After Ascension Coltrane only continued to push the envelope even further, nearing godlike level in the final recordings right before his death. He is without question my favorite musician of all time.

post #258 of 778
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJ Elite View Post

One of my favorite albums of all time. As far as free jazz goes, I actually find it rather conservative to be honest. When you listen to it enough I find it to have a surprising amount of structure to it and that it's actually still clearly quite rooted in the traditions of bop and other jazz that came before. Truly a watershed work. After Ascension Coltrane only continued to push the envelope even further, nearing godlike level in the final recordings right before his death. He is without question my favorite musician of all time.

 



Hmmm, can you recommend a very late Coltrane album?
Maybe I'll give what you recommend a listen.
post #259 of 778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post

Hmmm, can you recommend a very late Coltrane album?
Maybe I'll give what you recommend a listen.

 

A Love Supreme is the John Coltrane album I would recommend. While this album is by no means the most "free" of the later Coltrane albums (for that I would suggest "Live in Japan" 1966) it is considered to be the opening salvo in Coltrane's move to free jazz. The remarkable thing about A Love Supreme is just how grounded in mainstream jazz its music actually is. For example bassist Jimmy Garrison plays a basic walking bass vamp throughout the first part of this four part work. In addition while A Love Supreme was recorded by the classic John Coltrane quartet (Coltrane, Garrison, McCoy Tyner - piano and Elvin Jones - drums) the only member of this quartet to remain with Coltrane throughout his later years of playing free jazz was bassist Jimmy Garrison. While Tyner and Jones would soon become discouraged playing free jazz they do not have any problems with the freer aspects of the music on this recording. As a matter of fact, Jones' playing on this recording is classic example of his famous poly-rhythmic drumming abilities, which is a fancy way of saying that Jones has the uncanny ability to play several different rhythms at once. So the bass drum is played at one rhythm, the snare drum at another all while the cymbals feature a third rhythm pattern. Remarkable.

post #260 of 778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post

Hmmm, can you recommend a very late Coltrane album?
Maybe I'll give what you recommend a listen.

Well my current three favorite Coltrane albums are Ascension, Interstellar Space and The Olatunji Concert, with the latter two being his last studio and live recording respectively. Interstellar Space features only him and drummer Rashied Ali playing duets. The Olatunji Concert on the other hand features a full band with his wife Alice Coltrane on the piano, Jimmy Garrison on bass, Rashied Ali on drums, and the great Pharoah Sanders on tenor saxophone alongside Coltrane, along with a couple of other people. If you couldn't get into Ascension, I bet you'll have a tough time digesting The Olatunji Concert, though. The recording quality of probably the worts I've ever heard besides some horrendous bootlegs, with many of even those besting this live recording. For me the way it was recorded only adds to the experience though, making it sonically very unique. For 99.9% of the populous of Earth, I imagine the music sounds like pure noise. For me it's pure orgasmic delight from start to finish, but the system I listen to it on must be a really good speaker setup or I'll find the music impossible to follow. Same goes for most free jazz recordings, but especially this one.

 

So I guess you could give Interstellar Space a try. The mix is a bit weird, with Coltrane being in the right channel and Ali mostly in the middle. I've heard a lot of great things of a lot of late-Trane recordings, but sadly I haven't yet listened to all of them. Many of the ones I have I haven't heard enough many times to feel confident in recommending them to others. I recently heard One Down, One Up: Live at the Half Note for the first time and really liked it. It's not really free jazz, but it's certainly more avant-garde than Coltrane's music from a couple years earlier. It was recorded only a couple months prior to Ascension.

 

Edit:

I somehow forgot about Crescent which would definitely be in my top three Coltrane albums, and A Love Supreme might be there as well, but the ones I mentioned are without question my fav three late-Trane albums at the moment, "late" being post Ascension. Just to clarify things. Crescent is an often overlooked masterpiece overshadowed by the giant A Love Supreme which came immediately after it.


Edited by TJ Elite - 1/30/14 at 12:08pm
post #261 of 778
Quote:
Originally Posted by ralphp@optonline View Post

 

A Love Supreme is the John Coltrane album I would recommend. While this album is by no means the most "free" of the later Coltrane albums (for that I would suggest "Live in Japan" 1966) it is considered to be the opening salvo in Coltrane's move to free jazz. The remarkable thing about A Love Supreme is just how grounded in mainstream jazz its music actually is. For example bassist Jimmy Garrison plays a basic walking bass vamp throughout the first part of this four part work. In addition while A Love Supreme was recorded by the classic John Coltrane quartet (Coltrane, Garrison, McCoy Tyner - piano and Elvin Jones - drums) the only member of this quartet to remain with Coltrane throughout his later years of playing free jazz was bassist Jimmy Garrison. While Tyner and Jones would soon become discouraged playing free jazz they do not have any problems with the freer aspects of the music on this recording. As a matter of fact, Jones' playing on this recording is classic example of his famous poly-rhythmic drumming abilities, which is a fancy way of saying that Jones has the uncanny ability to play several different rhythms at once. So the bass drum is played at one rhythm, the snare drum at another all while the cymbals feature a third rhythm pattern. Remarkable.

 



Yes, I'm a big fan of "A Love Supreme"!

I assume you also like the Tony Williams/Wayne Shorter/Ron Carter/Herbie Hancock Miles Davis Quintet?

Tony Williams may be the greatest drummer who ever lived.
post #262 of 778
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJ Elite View Post

Well my current three favorite Coltrane albums are Ascension, Interstellar Space and The Olatunji Concert, with the latter two being his last studio and live recording respectively. Interstellar Space features only him and drummer Rashied Ali playing duets. The Olatunji Concert on the other hand features a full band with his wife Alice Coltrane on the piano, Jimmy Garrison on bass, Rashied Ali on drums, and the great Pharoah Sanders on tenor saxophone alongside Coltrane, along with a couple of other people. If you couldn't get into Ascension, I bet you'll have a tough time digesting The Olatunji Concert, though. The recording quality of probably the worts I've ever heard besides some horrendous bootlegs, with many of even those besting this live recording. For me the way it was recorded only adds to the experience though, making it sonically very unique. For 99.9% of the populous of Earth, I imagine the music sounds like pure noise. For me it's pure orgasmic delight from start to finish, but the system I listen to it on must be a really good speaker setup or I'll find the music impossible to follow. Same goes for most free jazz recordings, but especially this one.

 

So I guess you could give Interstellar Space a try. The mix is a bit weird, with Coltrane being in the right channel and Ali mostly in the middle. I've heard a lot of great things of a lot of late-Trane recordings, but sadly I haven't yet listened to all of them. Many of the ones I have I haven't heard enough many times to feel confident in recommending them to others. I recently heard One Down, One Up: Live at the Half Note for the first time and really liked it. It's not really free jazz, but it's certainly more avant-garde than Coltrane's music from a couple years earlier. It was recorded only a couple months prior to Ascension.

 

Edit:

I somehow forgot about Crescent which would definitely be in my top three Coltrane albums, and A Love Supreme might be there as well, but the ones I mentioned are without question my fav three late-Trane albums at the moment, "late" being post Ascension. Just to clarify things. Crescent is an often overlooked masterpiece overshadowed by the giant A Love Supreme which came immediately after it.

 



Hey Thanks!


I have "interstellar Space". It's a bit too out there for me. Maybe I'll have to give it another spin.

But I do like "One Down and One Up". Excellent album. I guess it is "traditional" enough for me, LOL!

I'll have to give "Crescent" a try too. I've never heard it.
post #263 of 778
Thread Starter 

Thanks for keeping this thread going everybody. We had a little hiccup there, but we seem to have made it past it. Lets all keep it friendly and keep the recommendations and pleasant conversation going strong. 

 

Right now I'm listening to something a little bit out there. Basically I guess I'd call it a mix of electronic/dubstep with some jazz influences. There are some female vocals mixed in sometimes too. It's fun and interesting though. It's really giving my new subwoofer a good workout, thats for sure.  

post #264 of 778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post

Yes, I'm a big fan of "A Love Supreme"!

I assume you also like the Tony Williams/Wayne Shorter/Ron Carter/Herbie Hancock Miles Davis Quintet?

Tony Williams may be the greatest drummer who ever lived.

Of course I like the mid 1960s Miles Davis Quintet, one of the greatest jazz groups of all time.

 

I do have an issue with naming someone "the greatest" whatever. Absolutely Tony Williams was one of the greatest drummers in the history of jazz but to say just "the greatest" is asking a lot. For example Max Roach is also one of the greatest jazz drummers but his style was quite different from that Tony Williams. So I'll just stick with "one of the greatest" - makes for less arguments :beerchug:

 

By the way, I gave a recommendation for Miles Davis - Live in Europe 1967: The Bootleg Series, Vol. 1 back in post #186. The Miles Davis/Tony Williams/Wayne Shorter/Ron Carter/Herbie Hancock Quintet at their best.

post #265 of 778
Quote:
Originally Posted by ralphp@optonline View Post
 

Of course I like the mid 1960s Miles Davis Quintet, one of the greatest jazz groups of all time.

 

I do have an issue with naming someone "the greatest" whatever. Absolutely Tony Williams was one of the greatest drummers in the history of jazz but to say just "the greatest" is asking a lot. For example Max Roach is also one of the greatest jazz drummers but his style was quite different from that Tony Williams. So I'll just stick with "one of the greatest" - makes for less arguments :beerchug:

 

By the way, I gave a recommendation for Miles Davis - Live in Europe 1967: The Bootleg Series, Vol. 1 back in post #186. The Miles Davis/Tony Williams/Wayne Shorter/Ron Carter/Herbie Hancock Quintet at their best.

 

That's why I qualified it with "may be the greatest drummer who ever lived".

Hey, it's just my opinion, man.

 

But I'm still right......:evil:

post #266 of 778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post
 

 

That's why I qualified it with "may be the greatest drummer who ever lived".

Hey, it's just my opinion, man.

 

But I'm still right......:evil:


I might be inclined to say that Tony Williams' cymbal work was second to none.

post #267 of 778
Thread Starter 

This is great stuff.

post #268 of 778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post

Hey Thanks!


I have "interstellar Space". It's a bit too out there for me. Maybe I'll have to give it another spin.

But I do like "One Down and One Up". Excellent album. I guess it is "traditional" enough for me, LOL!

I'll have to give "Crescent" a try too. I've never heard it.

This is why I think Crescent is so underrated. You for example have heard Ascension, Interstellar Space(!) and One Down, One Up, but not Crescent. Pretty much everyone who I know who has heard Crescent would name it as one of their favorite Coltrane records. Based on that I'm quite confident you're in for a treat. It certainly won't be your gateway into free jazz, but it sure is one fine record. I recently got the Original Recordings Group limited edition vinyl and it sounds truly glorious.

 

I think I'm blessed when it comes to free jazz, because I simply liked both of the first two albums I heard in the genre, which were Ornette Coleman's Free Jazz and Coltrane's Ascension. It took me years to learn to appreciate Ascension on more than a superficial level, but just the sheer amount of energy on that record excited, intrigued and shocked me all at the same time when I first heard it. Free Jazz I just found instantly likeable from the get-go. I've never really witnessed a person I know learn to embrace free jazz. Everyone I know either loves it or doesn't. I was shocked when a cousin of mine who currently studies music technology and composition at a university in London recently recommend a group called Supersilent to me. All of their music is very avant-garde free improvisation much akin to free jazz or what most would even call free jazz. Only a couple years ago I remember mentioning him something about how much I enjoyed Keith Jarrett's solo piano improvisations and he just made a short comment about not liking improvisation or something. I guess he's made quite a leap at some point, likely because someone recommended something to him. We've known each other since childhood and share similar tastes in music, but sadly I wasn't there to witness his transition to appreciate free improvisation.

 

What I'm trying to say is that I have no idea how one who doesn't just naturally enjoy free jazz learns to appreciate it, apart from putting effort into liking it. Music appreciation and taste are not something I think we have from birth. It is something we acquire through time, experiences and exposure. When I was a child I didn't like music, hated it. I couldn't fathom why anyone would listen to music. I'd never heard anything I liked and only when I was around 14 or 15 I made my first attempt to buy a couple of CDs and try to find out what people though was so great about music. The musical education I got at school was rubbish and only further discouraged me from wanting to appreciate music. Those first albums I bought were all awful and it was only a few years later that I discovered some music that I liked and channels through which I could discover new good music. That story is too long to retell here, but nowadays music is the biggest thing in my life and I couldn't imagine living without it. For the past decade I've probably bought somewhere in the vicinity of two to three hundred albums per year on average and I only continue to discover new sources for music. Every time I embrace a new genre, it takes me months to learn to appreciate it. Two years ago I wouldn't have imagined I'd ever find myself listening to trance or house because my first experiences with EDM in the early 2000s were very negative. Then I came across a couple of artists whose work I adored and spent the next six months exploring the vast sea of genres and artists out there. Now EDM is one of the genres I listen to most often on a daily basis. In the end I think it all comes down to how much effort one is willing to put in. There is something to like about virtually any genre, I feel.

 

Edit: It helps when you find that perfect personal entry point into a genre.


Edited by TJ Elite - 1/31/14 at 4:30am
post #269 of 778

Jimmy Giuffre made some really great, subtle jazz with Jim Hall and Bob Brookmeyer..

 

.

post #270 of 778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quinto View Post
 

Jimmy Giuffre made some really great, subtle jazz with Jim Hall and Bob Brookmeyer..

 

.

very nice indeed - this is going on my list 

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