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On a mission to like jazz - Page 13

post #181 of 2118
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJ Elite View Post
 

I've actually seen that album listed plenty a time. One of my cousins is a big fan of classical and jazz (well, music in general), and that album along with Get Up with It are some of his all-time favorite Miles Davis records. It also currently stands at #52 on Rate Your Music's charts for jazz with live and archival releases included on the list along with all sub-genres listed under jazz.


Good to know. I happily stand corrected.

 

I checked out the Rate Your Music link/list and I am not that impressed.

For example:

 

 #6 Frnak Zappa's Hot Rats while a great album is not a jazz album.

 

The top twenty on the are all good but really no Louis Armstrong (#94!?!?!?), Duke Ellington (#31!?!?!?), Count Basie (isn't even in the top 500, incredible!), Clifford Brown (#51!?!?!?) or Billie Holiday (isn't even in the top 500, incredible!).

 

Sure I understand that this is public list and based on the artists listed I would guess that the RYM users are on the young side but the list shows a very serious lack of jazz history beyond some 1950s hard bop and of course the early 1960s Blue Note recordings. Unfortunate.

post #182 of 2118
Quote:
Originally Posted by ralphp@optonline View Post
 

Good to know. I happily stand corrected.

 

I checked out the Rate Your Music link/list and I am not that impressed.

For example:

 

 #6 Frnak Zappa's Hot Rats while a great album is not a jazz album.

 

The top twenty on the are all good but really no Louis Armstrong (#94!?!?!?), Duke Ellington (#31!?!?!?), Count Basie (isn't even in the top 500, incredible!), Clifford Brown (#51!?!?!?) or Billie Holiday (isn't even in the top 500, incredible!).

 

Sure I understand that this is public list and based on the artists listed I would guess that the RYM users are on the young side but the list shows a very serious lack of jazz history beyond some 1950s hard bop and of course the early 1960s Blue Note recordings. Unfortunate.

Since you are not familiar with RYM, it takes a bit of experience and knowledge to interpret the charts in a meaningful way. Relatively few people even out of music lovers are seriously into jazz and the most popular releases are going to populate the top no matter what. Some of the greatest jazz albums of all time are relatively unknown to people who aren't "in the know" and thus have very few rating on for example a site like RYM. Which is a very popular and useful site, might I add, but only if you know how to use it effectively. Some of the real gems might for example appear in the "esoteric" category. Those releases only have anywhere from only a handful to a couple hundred ratings tops, whereas heavyweights like Kind of Blue for example can have over 10,000 ratings. Of course the number of ratings isn't everything, but I believe RYM's algorithm for calculating the rankings puts more weight on a release that has more ratings than a release that has the same raw average but far fewer ratings. A lot of other factors factor in as well.

 

What goes for example Hot Rats appearing on the custom chart I generated and linked, if you take a look at its two listed primary genres voted by users, it's listed both as jazz-rock and jazz fusion so that's why it's there. There is no way to both include and excluded certain genres at the same time as far as I'm aware, and listing all sub-genres of jazz by hand to exclude results like jazz-rock would be tedious. And unless I left out jazz fusion it would still pop up in the results. It's far easier to just filter the results with your eye once you've set the parameters close enough to what you're searching for. RYM is most useful for discovering new music. I doubt the precise rankings are something that's intended to be taken too, too seriously given that they are constantly in small flux anyway. Also I would personally put much more weight on the written reviews left by user than the weighted average. Some of the people who use the site are true music aficionados with excellent taste in music and who write expertly-written and thorough reviews that are often far better done than those of a lot of professional music critics out there. For a person who owns 1k+ jazz records RYM probably isn't that much of use and classical buffs needn't even bother, but for others it can be one of the most useful sources of music discovery provided you take the time to learn how to use the site to your advantage.

 

Edit:

It all comes down to the search parameters, really. If a jazz novice wanted to for example get their feet wet in the realm of free jazz, RYM's first page for that genre alone would offer plenty of good music to hear. What does it matter even if some people would find certain entries debatable? You can always just move on to listen to something else.


Edited by TJ Elite - 1/20/14 at 11:36am
post #183 of 2118

Good discussion in my opinion.

 

Here's another question for the smart guys here - what are the "sub-genres" of jazz?

 

I read the terms fusion, smooth jazz, even jazz-rock above, free jazz and I wonder if someone can characterize them? 

 

For one, I love what is currently known as smooth jazz (popularity of which I feel started in1984 with Kenny G's Songbird) with the following artists included -

 

David Sanborn

Eric Marienthal

Paul Hardcastle

David Benoit

Spyro Gyra

Dave Grusin

Boney James

And dozens more..............

 

I find the entire genre fascinating as it seems to be this huge umbrella name for so many types of music that are typically instrumental in nature but not exclusively. 

post #184 of 2118
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJ Elite View Post

I've actually seen that album listed plenty a time. One of my cousins is a big fan of classical and jazz (well, music in general), and that album along with Get Up with It are some of his all-time favorite Miles Davis records. It also currently stands at #52 on Rate Your Music's charts for jazz with live and archival releases included on the list along with all sub-genres listed under jazz.

For me, Miles's finest era may be the Tony Williams/Ron Carter/Herbie Hancock/Wayne Shorter era.

Miles Smiles
sorcerer
Nefertiti
The live stuff is phenomenal, Live at The Plugged Nickel, etc.
post #185 of 2118
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJ Elite View Post

.....

 

Edit:

It all comes down to the search parameters, really. If a jazz novice wanted to for example get their feet wet in the realm of free jazz, RYM's first page for that genre alone would offer plenty of good music to hear. What does it matter even if some people would find certain entries debatable? You can always just move on to listen to something else.

Very nicely stated. I agree that for the novice jazz listener RYM's listing would be very useful but I can't help but say that it leaves me just scratching my head.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregonian View Post
 

Good discussion in my opinion.

 

Here's another question for the smart guys here - what are the "sub-genres" of jazz?

 

I read the terms fusion, smooth jazz, even jazz-rock above, free jazz and I wonder if someone can characterize them? 

 

For one, I love what is currently known as smooth jazz (popularity of which I feel started in1984 with Kenny G's Songbird) with the following artists included -

 

David Sanborn

Eric Marienthal

Paul Hardcastle

David Benoit

Spyro Gyra

Dave Grusin

Boney James

And dozens more..............

 

I find the entire genre fascinating as it seems to be this huge umbrella name for so many types of music that are typically instrumental in nature but not exclusively. 

A few jazz sub-genres and some examples of each.

 

Early jazz, ragtime, dixieland, traditional jazz: Jelly Roll Morton, Eubie Blake, Preservation Hall Jazz Band, Louis Armstrong's Hot Five and Hot Sevens, Sidney Bechet

 

Big band and small group swing, including the sub-sub-genre of swing song: Count Basie, Duke Ellington, Benny Carter, Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holiday, Benny Goodman, Artie Shaw

 

Be-bop: Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie, early Thelonious Monk, Bud Powell

 

Hard bop: Clifford Brown & Max Roach Quartet, Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers, the mid 1950s Miles Davis Quintet

 

Modern Jazz (the term used to refer to jazz from the late 1950s and early 1960s that was NOT either be-bop or hard bop): the late 1950's Miles Davis Quintet (as in the one that recorded "Kind of Blue"), Lennie Tristano, Sonny Rollins, most early 1960s Blue Note recordings, The Dave Brubeck Quartet

 

Free or avant-garde jazz: Ornette Coleman, Cecil Taylor, The Art Ensemble of Chicago, post 1964 John Coltrane

 

Contemporary jazz (another catch all term which refers to present day jazz that does not fit into one of the other sub-genres): Dave Douglas, Dave Holland, Charles Lloyd, Keith Jarrett

 

Smooth jazz: Kenny G and the other artists listed in the above quote.

 

Fusion: Weather Report, Return to Forever

 

Vocals: too damn many to list

 

Remember that these are only very, very broad classifications and lots of jazz recordings and musicians do not fit neatly into any one sub-genre. For example John Coltrane went from be-bop to hard bop to modern jazz to free jazz in the space of about 15 years. Duke Ellington played everything from classic big band jazz to very modern big band jazz to jazz scored for film and religious ceremonies.

post #186 of 2118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post


For me, Miles's finest era may be the Tony Williams/Ron Carter/Herbie Hancock/Wayne Shorter era.

Miles Smiles
sorcerer
Nefertiti
The live stuff is phenomenal, Live at The Plugged Nickel, etc.


If you don't already own it pick up a copy of Miles Davis - Live in Europe 1967: The Bootleg Series, Vol. 1

 

post #187 of 2118
Quote:
Originally Posted by ralphp@optonline View Post
 

 

Vocals: too damn many to list

 

 

 

Oh yes.  Vocals, both male and female..

post #188 of 2118

You'd be surprised at the amount of jazz that can be found on Google's All Access Music Streaming, even Miles Davis - Live in Europe 1967: The Bootleg Series.

post #189 of 2118
Quote:
Originally Posted by ralphp@optonline View Post


If you don't already own it pick up a copy of Miles Davis - Live in Europe 1967: The Bootleg Series, Vol. 1



Thanks!
I couldn't remember the name of that set.
For anyone who is interested in that period of Miles, that is an excellent set, it includes some concert video form that era.
post #190 of 2118

Count Basie is one of my favorites. I grew up with my father constantly playing him. 

Here's some stuff:  

 

https://archive.org/details/CountBasie-01-10

 

 

And another great is the Glenn Miller Band. I think one of their more known songs would be "In The Mood" 

 

 

post #191 of 2118
Quote:
Originally Posted by disaac View Post
 

Count Basie is one of my favorites. I grew up with my father constantly playing him. 

Here's some stuff:  

 

https://archive.org/details/CountBasie-01-10

 

 

And another great is the Glenn Miller Band. I think one of their more known songs would be "In The Mood" 

 

 


My father listened to lots of big band jazz. Bennie Goodman, Artie Shaw and Fats Waller, who has yet to be mentioned in this thread, were three of his favorites.

 

post #192 of 2118
Quote:
Originally Posted by ralphp@optonline View Post
 

Very nicely stated. I agree that for the novice jazz listener RYM's listing would be very useful but I can't help but say that it leaves me just scratching my head.

 

A few jazz sub-genres and some examples of each.

 

Early jazz, ragtime, dixieland, traditional jazz: Jelly Roll Morton, Eubie Blake, Preservation Hall Jazz Band, Louis Armstrong's Hot Five and Hot Sevens, Sidney Bechet

 

Big band and small group swing, including the sub-sub-genre of swing song: Count Basie, Duke Ellington, Benny Carter, Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holiday, Benny Goodman, Artie Shaw

 

Be-bop: Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie, early Thelonious Monk, Bud Powell

 

Hard bop: Clifford Brown & Max Roach Quartet, Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers, the mid 1950s Miles Davis Quintet

 

Modern Jazz (the term used to refer to jazz from the late 1950s and early 1960s that was NOT either be-bop or hard bop): the late 1950's Miles Davis Quintet (as in the one that recorded "Kind of Blue"), Lennie Tristano, Sonny Rollins, most early 1960s Blue Note recordings, The Dave Brubeck Quartet

 

Free or avant-garde jazz: Ornette Coleman, Cecil Taylor, The Art Ensemble of Chicago, post 1964 John Coltrane

 

Contemporary jazz (another catch all term which refers to present day jazz that does not fit into one of the other sub-genres): Dave Douglas, Dave Holland, Charles Lloyd, Keith Jarrett

 

Smooth jazz: Kenny G and the other artists listed in the above quote.

 

Fusion: Weather Report, Return to Forever

 

Vocals: too damn many to list

 

Remember that these are only very, very broad classifications and lots of jazz recordings and musicians do not fit neatly into any one sub-genre. For example John Coltrane went from be-bop to hard bop to modern jazz to free jazz in the space of about 15 years. Duke Ellington played everything from classic big band jazz to very modern big band jazz to jazz scored for film and religious ceremonies.


Well done bud.  Exactly what I was hoping for................

post #193 of 2118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregonian View Post
 


Well done bud.  Exactly what I was hoping for................


You are most welcome. I'm glad that my posts are hitting the mark. I've been listening to jazz for over 40 years and know quite a bit about jazz and its history. I've read many books about this wonderful music and I've also done some professional reviewing (i.e. I was paid) back in 1999 & 2000 during the first dot-com craze for an on-line publication called SonicNet. I find that writing these post on an internet forum give me a chance to give something back to the music that has given me so much enjoyment over the years. So as long as no one protests and I continue to get positive feedback I will continue to endeavor to pass along some of my knowledge (and help steer the thread back on topic now and then :beyersmile: )

 

I noticed that you have a set of Ultrasone Pro900s listed in your signature. I have a set of Pro900s that I been using with my laptop and an AudioQuest Dragonfly http://www.head-fi.org/t/617241/audioquest-dragonfly-review-affordable-outstanding-tiny-dac-amp and the sound is quite good. The lower power of the Dragonfly tames the big bass sound of the Pro900 rather nicely. A good pairing,especially when using the cord with the 1/8" jack.


Edited by ralphp@optonline - 1/20/14 at 4:30pm
post #194 of 2118

Ok so now how about some not so well know, but good jazz vocals..:biggrin:

post #195 of 2118
Quote:
Originally Posted by preproman View Post
 

Ok so now how about some not so well know, but good jazz vocals..:biggrin:


Eddie Jefferson - Benny's From Heaven

 

 

Dee Dee Bridgewater - Love for Sale

 

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