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$999 Calyx M with DXD + DSD, 64GB + SD + µSD storage - Page 15

post #211 of 4278

3 Ohms isn't going to be a problem. You guys worry about too much, seriously.

post #212 of 4278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Currawong View Post
 

3 Ohms isn't going to be a problem. You guys worry about too much, seriously.

 

+1

Agreed, people tend to over exaggerate over the difference between 3ohms and <1ohms. It's akin to the story where 1 guy cried wolf and everyone follows suit when most didn't even see the wolf..

post #213 of 4278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Currawong View Post
 

3 Ohms isn't going to be a problem. You guys worry about too much, seriously.

 

Really? I guess you'd better moderate that Head-fi article I linked, then?

post #214 of 4278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mython View Post
 

 

Really? I guess you'd better moderate that Head-fi article I linked, then?

 

But if you try and you love its sound, then that doesn't matter I guess
The most important thing after all is the SQ, not spec

post #215 of 4278

When I auditioned the AK120 with an amp and without one, I can really hear something is not quite right with the bass on some music I tried.

 

This may not be an issue for majority of the users but for music with lots of bass details definitely there is an impact.

 

It's either the output impedance causing the issue I hear or I just don't like the AK120.

post #216 of 4278

we are truly an emotional bunch :D

post #217 of 4278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rednuht View Post
 

 

But if you try and you love its sound, then that doesn't matter I guess
The most important thing after all is the SQ, not spec

 

That is true, but:

 

1) if there is no demo in the country then how will a potential customer be able to try it?

 

2) if it exerts sufficient control over one pair of CIEMs (say, the SE-5) that does not necessarily mean that it will exert sufficient control over a different pair of CIEMs (say, NT6 or UM Miracle, for example) that a person might purchase some time in the future, which might have a lower impedance curve. So, then you could end up spending a thousands bucks on a DAP which doesn't perform adequately with a thousand bucks worth of CIEMs. The point is that a high-end DAP shouldn't put potential hurdles in front of customers (and I've said the same thing about the AK DAPs, incidentally). As AmberOzL noted, companies like Fiio can design low-impedance amp circuits so I don't see why it's so hard for High-end makers to manage it, even if there are engineering challenges to overcome in order to achieve it.

 

@ Currawong: I notice you do not use a DAP on it's own, but run your DAPs through a Pico Power amp. I don't know the output impedance of that amp, but I know that Pico do take low output impedance seriously.

 

 

 


 

There are many of us who are fed up with high-end DAPs being made with the blase assumption that if the output impedance doesn't suit, then it can be modded or amped. Some of us feel that a thousand bucks should buy a product with no unnecessary potential limitations in compatibility, and with no need to strap a bulky additional amp to it (and at additional expense).

 

 

 

 

Believe me, both of you, I do appreciate that specs aren't everything. I get the point.

 

However, I also feel that certain specs can unnecessarily have an undesirable influence upon synergy and these concerns should not be casually dismissed, either.

 

As ever, there is a middle ground between the 2 viewpoints, and I can see validity in each. We shall just have to see what happens with the Calyx, but I continue to believe that not making the effort to engineer the OI to below 3 ohms is a missed opportunity.



Edited by Mython - 12/27/13 at 8:12pm
post #218 of 4278

 pico amps have < 1 ohm OI

post #219 of 4278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mython View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Currawong View Post
 

3 Ohms isn't going to be a problem. You guys worry about too much, seriously.

 

Really? I guess you'd better moderate that Head-fi article I linked, then?

 

That article states:

Quote:
 As a rule of thumb, the load impedance (headphone) should be at least eight times higher than the amplifier output impedance.

 

Do you know why? Do you know where that statement came from? Do you know exactly how much difference it will make with the headphones or IEMs you use?

 

Did you think of asking the designer of the Calyx what "problems" there were that he chose a 3 Ohm output impedance?

 

Honestly, rather than get your knickers in a knot over a number you don't understand, I suggest researching the reasons and improving your understanding, rather than assuming the designer, who obviously has far more knowledge, ability and experience with electronics than we do, is a moron throwing parts into a box.

 

In my experience, there are very many generalisations made about audio which, while true, often have exceptions. To give one related example: there are current amps which have an output impedance of mega-Ohms, which, by the logic of the statement above, would be crazy, but they are effective as amps in different ways to what we expect.

 

Regardless, until someone gets a hold of this DAP, it'd be wrong to assume anything about it, and from that trash it IMO.

 

:smile:

post #220 of 4278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Currawong View Post
 

 

That article states:

 

Do you know why? Do you know where that statement came from? Do you know exactly how much difference it will make with the headphones or IEMs you use?

 

Did you think of asking the designer of the Calyx what "problems" there were that he chose a 3 Ohm output impedance?

 

Honestly, rather than get your knickers in a knot over a number you don't understand, I suggest researching the reasons and improving your understanding, rather than assuming the designer, who obviously has far more knowledge, ability and experience with electronics than we do, is a moron throwing parts into a box.

 

In my experience, there are very many generalisations made about audio which, while true, often have exceptions. To give one related example: there are current amps which have an output impedance of mega-Ohms, which, by the logic of the statement above, would be crazy, but they are effective as amps in different ways to what we expect.

 

Regardless, until someone gets a hold of this DAP, it'd be wrong to assume anything about it, and from that trash it IMO.

 

:smile:

 

 

JFTR, I am not 'trashing' the Calyx-M.

 

I'm expressing a concern.

 

Sure, there are sometimes exceptions, but that doesn't disprove a general trend.

 

You are right that I am not an expert in this field, and, on one level, you are quite justified in throwing that particular brick at me - I'm mature enough to be able to accept such criticism.

 

But I also feel that where a genuine trend has emerged, over numerous interactions between various low-impedance CIEMs and various DAP  / AMP  output impedances, experienced by countless customers of various devices, and where this trend is quite clearly acknowledged as significant, in the designs or advice of a number of company's products (Fiio, Pico, iBasso, CustomArt, etc.) then this should equally be acknowledged here, and we shouldn't all be expected to be electronics engineers in order to be able to legitimately observe such a trend and express concerns when an otherwise-stunning DAP appears to buck that trend. Quite a few companies seem to have engineers capable of designing circuits with a sufficient level of stability & damping, even with sub-2-ohm or sub-1-ohm output impedance.

 

It's less of an issue for people who use desktop gear, or who treat portable gear in a stackable, trans-portable manner, but for those of us who use our DAPs in our pocket rather than lugging it around in a rucksack or using it on the desktop at work or whatever, the stakes are considerably higher when considering the viability of a DAP costing a thousand bucks. It's also a major issue when demonstration units are not available in certain countries or provinces.

 

I therefore respectfully beg to differ with your perspective, even though I acknowledge it has certain merits, too.

 

Nothing personal, just a respectful difference of opinion.


Edited by Mython - 12/27/13 at 9:00pm
post #221 of 4278
I found the AK120 to suitable for most iems with it's 3 ohm output, but it did have a weird effect on the Miracles, which are sensitive to OI of the source.

Besides, Vinny from RWA offers a mod bypassing the resistor on the AK120. So unless Vinny does not know what he is doing or is trying to extort people money for nothing, an OI of 3 ohms matters.

Does mean the M will suck? No and I am clearly not a DAP designer. Does this mean some iems with 16 ohms in OI will be affected? It is a possibility worth mentioning IMO. But I would love to be corrected by someone with morw technical background on the subject.
post #222 of 4278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mython View Post
 
Nothing personal, just a respectful difference of opinion.

 

No problem. It was just frustration with things such as: 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by headwhacker View Post
 

3-Ohm, damn if true I fold. Seriously?

 

where people appear to be looking at a single number and judging a product based on incomplete information. (headwhacker: Nothing against you in this case.)

post #223 of 4278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Currawong View Post
 

 

No problem. It was just frustration with things such as: 

 

 

where people appear to be looking at a single number and judging a product based on incomplete information. (headwhacker: Nothing against you in this case.)

 

None taken. I agree it's speculation at this point and true the full details are not out yet. I'm just speaking on a very specific use case scenario and not assuming the the product is bad because of a single spec alone. 

 

Anyway, we will soon find out the full details next week the earliest.


Edited by headwhacker - 12/27/13 at 10:57pm
post #224 of 4278

So this isn't vaporware after all?  Guess I'm getting too cynical

 

Off-topic:  how coem DAP makers get all the heat about OI being too high?  I look at it the opposite way:  WTF are IEM impendances so damn low?  They're as much a part of the "problem" as the DAP-makers

post #225 of 4278

Did anyone mention about preorder scheduled next week with the official site?

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