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post #226 of 1703

I don't see the 1r in it at all.  Please don't... the 1r shouldn't be compared looks wise (or sound wise lol) to this headphone!

CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v80), quality = 100Beautiful...

Now it does look very similar to the KEF M500.

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post #227 of 1703
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trunks159 View Post

I don't see the 1r in it at all.  Please don't... the 1r shouldn't be compared looks wise (or sound wise lol) to this headphone!
CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v80), quality = 100
Beautiful...
Now it does look very similar to the KEF M500.
Why not. Look at the headband, it looks identical
post #228 of 1703
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trunks159 View Post
 

I don't see the 1r in it at all.  Please don't... the 1r shouldn't be compared looks wise (or sound wise lol) to this headphone!

CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v80), quality = 100Beautiful...

Now it does look very similar to the KEF M500.

Psh, this is far prettier than that generic thing... 

post #229 of 1703
Quote:
Originally Posted by takato14 View Post

Psh, this is far prettier than that generic thing... 
Im flabbergasted!
post #230 of 1703
Quote:
Originally Posted by takato14 View Post

Um, actually, the trampoline effect of planar membranes totally smears the imaging of an orthodynamic. This is what a lot of people call the "wall of sound" effect. You need pistonic, precisely controlled motion for good imaging. You can quell this effect by lifting the drivers farther from the ear and making the design completely open, but at its best it still can't match a good dynamic.

Actually to be exact, that description wall of sound or wall of bass came from me and spritzer describing what the LCD2's sound like as the low end is literally dominating over the treble and mids and brings down the soundstaging a lot, the LCD3 improve on this bit by very little. Remember modern planar magnetic transducers work in the same fashion as electrostatic transducers except they have a much thicker membrane/diaphragm and only one side is charged or half of it whereas stats are charged equally on both sides. I have heard the Abyss after my rant thread although they got the treble out more it is far from perfect but a lot better than the Hifiman and Audeze offerings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubstep Girl View Post

definitely not worth 5K, not even close. 

Agreed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clemmaster View Post

The abyss of themselves cost $500.
The JPS Labs cables cost $5000...

Actually the cables is around $1.5k or so this is what A2A said.
Edited by DefQon - 10/15/13 at 2:34pm
post #231 of 1703

Very cool!

People have weird taste though when it comes to what is considered stylish...

post #232 of 1703
Quote:
Originally Posted by DefQon View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by takato14 View Post

Um, actually, the trampoline effect of planar membranes totally smears the imaging of an orthodynamic. This is what a lot of people call the "wall of sound" effect. You need pistonic, precisely controlled motion for good imaging. You can quell this effect by lifting the drivers farther from the ear and making the design completely open, but at its best it still can't match a good dynamic.

Actually to be exact, that description wall of sound or wall of bass came from me and spritzer describing what the LCD2's sound like as the low end is literally dominating over the treble and mids and brings down the soundstaging a lot, the LCD3 improve on this bit by very little. Remember modern planar magnetic transducers work in the same fashion as electrostatic transducers except they have a much thicker membrane/diaphragm and only one side is charged or half of it whereas stats are charged equally on both sides. I have heard the Abyss after my rant thread although they got the treble out more it is far from perfect but a lot better than the Hifiman and Audeze offerings.

I'm sorry, but this is just plain innacurate. Planarmagnetic transducers push air particles forward to produce a sound wave. The membrane of an electrostat is lighter than air, therefore it cannot push or move it, it instead excites the particles to create noise, aptly named the electrostatic effect. This is why stats are mostly devoid of impact by default when compared to dynamic transducers. 

 

But I thought that the wall of sound effect is because it literally is a wall of sound-- the driver is just a big flat wall of substrate pressed up against your ears, with a mostly solid enclosure, and no open space on the sides of the driver.


Edited by takato14 - 10/15/13 at 8:09pm
post #233 of 1703
Quote:
Originally Posted by takato14 View Post
 

I'm sorry, but this is just plain innacurate. Planarmagnetic transducers push air particles forward to produce a sound wave. The membrane of an electrostat is lighter than air, therefore it cannot push or move it, it instead excites the particles to create noise, aptly named the electrostatic effect. This is why stats are mostly devoid of impact by default when compared to dynamic transducers. 

 

But I thought that the wall of sound effect is because it literally is a wall of sound-- the driver is just a big flat wall of substrate pressed up against your ears with a mostly solid enclosure.

....What ...in the... are you talking about? :ph34r:

 

The only reason why electrostatic planar headphones are called that is because they operate by having a 'static' electric charge on the membranes, sandwiched between perforated metal plates that act as electrodes generating an electric field onto the charged membrane - audio signals vary the field, so the membrane vibrates and makes sound like any other audio transducer, by pushing air. Guess what the perforations are for in the electrodes? They are for the air to move through in order to conduct sound to your ears. This ain't rocket science.

 

Having the membranes lighter than air or not has nothing to do with anything; thinner membranes just ensure better transients, at an expense of more difficult tensioning in the manufacturing process, and often more difficulty in pushing air for low frequencies. There is no "electrostatic effect" going on, the electric fields generated by the electrodes in electrostatic headphones aren't making any sound. :rolleyes:


Edited by jerg - 10/15/13 at 8:13pm
post #234 of 1703

Haha.  Electrostatics aren't called electrostats because they use...electrostatic effect to generate sound--- whatever that means.  The name is derived by the driving force for the diaphragm, which is weak compared to more conventional magnet arrays used in planar magnetics.

 

 

Also, a larger driver-- even if moved like a trampoline, is prone to deliver more of a flat wave into your ear than a small pistonic cone.  Tyll ponders this idea in his article about how planar magnetic headphones work.


Edited by TMRaven - 10/15/13 at 8:28pm
post #235 of 1703

Sorry if I missed it, but are these open or closed? Thanks! :)

post #236 of 1703
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfetan44 View Post
 

Sorry if I missed it, but are these open or closed? Thanks! :)

It's open. You can see through the perforated grills and see the outlines of the internal drivers in some of the photos.

post #237 of 1703

Seeing rectangular cups just makes me think of electrostats and light weight.  I bet those things are going to be a lot heavier than they look-- at least to me.

post #238 of 1703
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerg View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by takato14 View Post
 

I'm sorry, but this is just plain innacurate. Planarmagnetic transducers push air particles forward to produce a sound wave. The membrane of an electrostat is lighter than air, therefore it cannot push or move it, it instead excites the particles to create noise, aptly named the electrostatic effect. This is why stats are mostly devoid of impact by default when compared to dynamic transducers. 

 

But I thought that the wall of sound effect is because it literally is a wall of sound-- the driver is just a big flat wall of substrate pressed up against your ears with a mostly solid enclosure.

....What ...in the... are you talking about? :ph34r:

 

The only reason why electrostatic planar headphones are called that is because they operate by having a 'static' electric charge on the membranes, sandwiched between perforated metal plates that act as electrodes generating an electric field onto the charged membrane - audio signals vary the field, so the membrane vibrates and makes sound like any other audio transducer, by pushing air. Guess what the perforations are for in the electrodes? They are for the air to move through in order to conduct sound to your ears. This ain't rocket science.

 

Having the membranes lighter than air or not has nothing to do with anything; thinner membranes just ensure better transients, at an expense of more difficult tensioning in the manufacturing process, and often more difficulty in pushing air for low frequencies. There is no "electrostatic effect" going on, the electric fields generated by the electrodes in electrostatic headphones aren't making any sound. :rolleyes:

You misinterpreted me. Perhaps the "electrostatic effect" thing was inferred/invented, but I certainly didn't mean the stators themselves are making noise.. that's absurd. I was using it to refer to how stats are devoid of impact because of how they produce sound. 

 

However, please explain how something with a lower density and weight than air can possibly push it to any degree. Here's a hint: it can't. Electrostatic diaphragms have an extremely low amount of excursion, and it is in part due to the diaphragm being so insanely light. If you try to make it excurse far enough to actually push air, it will flex and shred itself under the weight of the air. Instead, the diaphragm is made very tense (hence why stats have extremely controlled sound) and the subtle vibrations excite the air particles without actually pushing them in any one direction. Think of a piece of rice paper sitting under a large water balloon on a table. The paper can't physically move the water balloon without tearing because it is too heavy, but it can still transfer vibrations to it. If you were to tap the paper, the balloon would vibrate. 

 

The holes in the stators are also to control airflow and prevent IMD. The reason why there are so few closed electrostats is because the driver has to be air dampened, and closing the cup traps air and causes distortion in random places on the diaphragm due to the pressure. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMRaven View Post
 

Also, a larger driver-- even if moved like a trampoline, is prone to deliver more of a flat wave into your ear than a small pistonic cone.  Tyll ponders this idea in his article about how planar magnetic headphones work.

This would be true if the membrane had completely pistonic movement, but it doesn't. The front wave is more cone/dome-ish with a planarmagnetic. Of course, the actual final frontwave that enters your ear varies with the distance from it, but not by a lot.


Edited by takato14 - 10/15/13 at 8:54pm
post #239 of 1703
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerg View Post
 

....What ...in the... are you talking about? :ph34r:

 

The only reason why electrostatic planar headphones are called that is because they operate by having a 'static' electric charge on the membranes, sandwiched between perforated metal plates that act as electrodes generating an electric field onto the charged membrane - audio signals vary the field, so the membrane vibrates and makes sound like any other audio transducer, by pushing air. Guess what the perforations are for in the electrodes? They are for the air to move through in order to conduct sound to your ears. This ain't rocket science.

 

Having the membranes lighter than air or not has nothing to do with anything; thinner membranes just ensure better transients, at an expense of more difficult tensioning in the manufacturing process, and often more difficulty in pushing air for low frequencies. There is no "electrostatic effect" going on, the electric fields generated by the electrodes in electrostatic headphones aren't making any sound. :rolleyes:

I'm pretty sure electrostatic diaphragms produce sound through excitation, they excite the molecules in the air by vibrating, to transfer sound.  How would a stat diaphragm push a gas that's heavier than itself around without shredding to bits?

post #240 of 1703
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerg View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfetan44 View Post
 

Sorry if I missed it, but are these open or closed? Thanks! :)

It's open. You can see through the perforated grills and see the outlines of the internal drivers in some of the photos.

Okay, just wanted to make sure.

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