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AKG K812 Pro - Page 32

post #466 of 2683
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audio-Omega View Post
 

Do those measurements indicate how K812 would perform on every type of music ?

People with the knowledge to interpret FR's and CSD plots can. But not 100%.

post #467 of 2683
Quote:
Originally Posted by DefQon View Post
 

People with the knowledge to interpret FR's and CSD plots can. But not 100%.

 

Why do you think it's just short of 100%?

post #468 of 2683
Quote:
Originally Posted by Claritas View Post
 

 

Why do you think it's just short of 100%?

Several variables are 'at play', the graphs and plots can give indications but not proofs. Beyerdynamic T1 has somewhat worse technical measurements than Sennheiser HD800 yet it sounds better on most types of music than HD800. 

post #469 of 2683
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorin View Post
 

Several variables are 'at play', the graphs and plots can give indications but not proofs. Beyerdynamic T1 has somewhat worse technical measurements than Sennheiser HD800 yet it sounds better on most types of music than HD800. 

 

"Not 100%" usually means at least 90%, as opposed to only 70%. I'm asking what the missing 5-10% is.

post #470 of 2683
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorin View Post
 

Beyerdynamic T1 has somewhat worse technical measurements than Sennheiser HD800 yet it sounds better on most types of music than HD800. 


No way !

Maybe on really poor records.

post #471 of 2683
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorin View Post
 Sennheiser HD800 are well known to have super-tizzy treble [witness the legion of those who complain and testify to this fact] but this did not prevent HD800 to be put on a pedestal and worshiped.

 

My native language is not english - can you tell me in other words, what you with tizzy treble or super-tizzy treble mean.

 

The translation to german http://www.dict.cc/?s=tizzy  did not really describes what you mean.

post #472 of 2683
Quote:
Originally Posted by FritzS View Post

 

My native language is not english - can you tell me in other words, what you with tizzy treble or super-tizzy treble mean. The translation to german http://www.dict.cc/?s=tizzy  did not really describes what you mean.

"tizzy: A "zz" or "ff" coloration of the sound of cymbals and vocal sibilants, caused by a rising frequency response above 10kHz. Similar to "wiry," but at a higher frequency."

 

"Tizzy describes too much upper treble (6kHz-10kHz), characterized as a whitening of the treble. Tizzy cymbals have an emphasis on the upper harmonics, the sizzle and air that rides over the main cymbal sound. Tizziness gives cymbals more of an ssssss than asssshhhh sound."

post #473 of 2683
Quote:
Originally Posted by money4me247 View Post
 

"tizzy: A "zz" or "ff" coloration of the sound of cymbals and vocal sibilants, caused by a rising frequency response above 10kHz. Similar to "wiry," but at a higher frequency."

 

"Tizzy describes too much upper treble (6kHz-10kHz), characterized as a whitening of the treble. Tizzy cymbals have an emphasis on the upper harmonics, the sizzle and air that rides over the main cymbal sound. Tizziness gives cymbals more of an ssssss than asssshhhh sound."

 

Now I understand what some mean ...  tsssss or tszszszs (sharpen s)
With some records of my CD/SACDs I heard this in short passages - but if I counter-check this passages with my D7000, K501, K712 this tizzy was present too, but more reserved. My conclusion, this tizzy are on the CD/SACDs present, the K812 is more analytic as my other headphones.

 

At some other CDs with similar music passages, I cant hear this.

post #474 of 2683
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by money4me247 View Post
 

"tizzy: A "zz" or "ff" coloration of the sound of cymbals and vocal sibilants, caused by a rising frequency response above 10kHz. Similar to "wiry," but at a higher frequency."

 

"Tizzy describes too much upper treble (6kHz-10kHz), characterized as a whitening of the treble. Tizzy cymbals have an emphasis on the upper harmonics, the sizzle and air that rides over the main cymbal sound. Tizziness gives cymbals more of an ssssss than asssshhhh sound."

 
Originally Posted by FritzS View Post
 

 

Now I understand what some mean ...  tsssss or tszszszs (sharpen s)
With some records of my CD/SACDs I heard this in short passages - but if I counter-check this passages with my D7000, K501, K712 this tizzy was present too, but more reserved. My conclusion, this tizzy are on the CD/SACDs present, the K812 is more analytic as my other headphones.

 

At some other CDs with similar music passages, I cant hear this.

The frequencies of the musical tones or of the speech sounds have acoustic energies. The sounds of the consonants that are prone to 'sibilance', like sz, ch, sh, zh, ts [German z ] have their main energies [loudness] at the frequencies above 6000 Hz and up to 10000 Hz.  If particular headphones have either an uncontrolled treble peak or peaks, or an overemphasized treble part of the frequency spectrum, from about 6000 Hz to 10000 Hz, then the naturally sharp acoustic edges of the consonants mentioned above get boosted or magnified in volume. This increase in volume of the sibilant portions of the sounds is relative to and out of proportion to the non-sibilant portions of the same sounds in lower frequencies. The sounds / consonants thus become 'sibilant' when presented by headphones that have treble problems.

[A small digression follows] - However, the frequency spectrum graphs do not always tell the whole story when it comes to the problem of sibilance. Here are interesting examples :

Sennheiser HD800 -   http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD800.pdf

Beyerdynamic T1 -   http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicT1SN3964.pdf [the serial number above about 3950 when the Beyerdynamic re-tuned the driver of T1]

According to the graphs the treble of T1 at 9000 Hz is louder by about 10 dB compared to the 9000 Hz part of HD800's treble. 10 dB difference is a lot, a lot, yet HD800 have, relative to the treble of T1, an over the top and sibilant treble. Exactly the opposite of what one, who is scientifically minded, would expect. (Other head-fi members commented on this, many find the treble part of the HD800 sound to be unpleasant / harsh.) Either there is, or there are, some aspect or aspects of sound that has not been, [or cannot be?] measured yet, to this day, or the measurements are wrong.

 

Edit / correction - it should be '10 dB difference'  and not '10 Hz difference'.


Edited by zorin - 12/27/13 at 2:39am
post #475 of 2683
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorin View Post

The frequencies of the musical tones or of the speech sounds have acoustic energies. The sounds of the consonants that are prone to 'sibilance', like sz, ch, sh, zh, ts [German z ] have their main energies [loudness] at the frequencies above 6000 Hz and up to 10000 Hz.  If particular headphones have either an uncontrolled treble peak or peaks, or an overemphasized treble part of the frequency spectrum, from about 6000 Hz to 10000 Hz, then the naturally sharp acoustic edges of the consonants mentioned above get boosted or magnified in volume. This increase in volume of the sibilant portions of the sounds is relative to and out of proportion to the non-sibilant portions of the same sounds in lower frequencies. The sounds / consonants thus become 'sibilant' when presented by headphones that have treble problems.
[A small digression follows] - However, the frequency spectrum graphs do not always tell the whole story when it comes to the problem of sibilance. Here are interesting examples :
Sennheiser HD800 -   http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD800.pdf
Beyerdynamic T1 -   http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicT1SN3964.pdf [the serial number above about 3950 when the Beyerdynamic re-tuned the driver of T1]
According to the graphs the treble of T1 at 9000 Hz is louder by about 10 dB compared to the 9000 Hz part of HD800's treble. 10 Hz difference is a lot, a lot, yet HD800 have, relative to the treble of T1, an over the top and sibilant treble. Exactly the opposite of what one, who is scientifically minded, would expect. (Other head-fi members commented on this, many find the treble part of the HD800 sound to be unpleasant.) Either there is, or there are, some aspect or aspects of sound that has not been, [or cannot be?] measured yet, to this day, or the measurements are wrong.

I found the HD 800 more sibilant and harsh than the T1 despite the T1 treble emphasis being in the 9-10khz region which is a region I'm particularly sensitive to. I think there are definitely aspects of sound that can't be measured currently if ever(aspects of sound such as musicality and 'soul' being particularly hard to grasp) and the graphs shown don't represent what I hear either. It's always been best to check multiple sources for graphs as other sources can tell quite a different story on the same headphone. And anyways trying the headphone is the best way to know for sure if they represent what's shown in a particular set of measurements or not. Many differences such as ear canal shape, head shape, headphone positioning, seal, etc. can alter the frequency response quite a bit, a dummy head for example won't represent what everyone hears since people's heads and ears come in all sorts of shapes and sizes. Taking in all the factors is near impossible and thus variations are bound to occur. Going by only only one set of measurements and impressions isn't ideal because of experimental variations. Looking at multiple sources of information and actually listening to the headphone if you can is the best way to go, it's simply a matter of doing research and testing it for oneself. The most natural and transparent and simply the best headphone I've ever heard is something often considered colored, although I can't find the measurements of the headphone anywhere.
Edited by kman1211 - 12/26/13 at 11:04pm
post #476 of 2683
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorin View Post
 

The frequencies of the musical tones or of the speech sounds have acoustic energies. The sounds of the consonants that are prone to 'sibilance', like sz, ch, sh, zh, ts [German z ] have their main energies [loudness] at the frequencies above 6000 Hz and up to 10000 Hz.  If particular headphones have either an uncontrolled treble peak or peaks, or an overemphasized treble part of the frequency spectrum, from about 6000 Hz to 10000 Hz, then the naturally sharp acoustic edges of the consonants mentioned above get boosted or magnified in volume. This increase in volume of the sibilant portions of the sounds is relative to and out of proportion to the non-sibilant portions of the same sounds in lower frequencies. The sounds / consonants thus become 'sibilant' when presented by headphones that have treble problems.

[A small digression follows] - However, the frequency spectrum graphs do not always tell the whole story when it comes to the problem of sibilance. Here are interesting examples :

Sennheiser HD800 -   http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD800.pdf

Beyerdynamic T1 -   http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicT1SN3964.pdf [the serial number above about 3950 when the Beyerdynamic re-tuned the driver of T1]

According to the graphs the treble of T1 at 9000 Hz is louder by about 10 dB compared to the 9000 Hz part of HD800's treble. 10 Hz difference is a lot, a lot, yet HD800 have, relative to the treble of T1, an over the top and sibilant treble. Exactly the opposite of what one, who is scientifically minded, would expect. (Other head-fi members commented on this, many find the treble part of the HD800 sound to be unpleasant / harsh.) Either there is, or there are, some aspect or aspects of sound that has not been, [or cannot be?] measured yet, to this day, or the measurements are wrong.

 

In my case I presume the 'sibilance' is a part of the recording - I know some sound engineers use a 'refresher' (the exactly name I dont know yet) to make an stuffy, lifeless recording fascinating. We need live recordings with very good microphones, very good eqipment and without manipulations


Edited by FritzS - 12/26/13 at 11:27pm
post #477 of 2683

Agree, while people argue about the headphones, the source was and still is the main problem.

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by FritzS View Post
 

 

In my case I presume the 'sibilance' is a part of the recording - I know some sound engineers use a 'refresher' (the exactly name I dont know yet) to make an stuffy, lifeless recording fascinating. We need live recordings with very good microphones, very good eqipment and without manipulations!

post #478 of 2683
Quote:
Originally Posted by FritzS View Post
 

 

In my case I presume the 'sibilance' is a part of the recording - I know some sound engineers use a 'refresher' (the exactly name I dont know yet) to make an stuffy, lifeless recording fascinating. We need live recordings with very good microphones, very good eqipment and without manipulations

 

 

By saying 'refresher' you probably meant to remaster. In today digital domain there's no such thing as sound without manipulation, most of the recorded musical material will need the mastering processes to fit to the industry standards. Now, the industry standards are quite stuck in the loudness war, but this is a complete another issue.

 

Back to the hps, The HD-800 and the T1 are boost in the lower treble, and when I say boost I mean both hps are boost above the K-702 treble range and obviously you can see it on any hps FR graph. Here is more info about the T1 treble boost, http://www.head-fi.org/t/595522/akg-k702-vs-beyerdynamic-t1-in-the-studio

 

I cant comment on the K-812 tizzy sound because I didn't had the chance to hear them out yet. Lol, I hope is just a tizzy conspiracy made by the HD-800 fanboys to try making the 800s treble sounds like is now more acceptable because of the new K-812. Anyway, I sure Mr. tizzy will help lower the K-812 price tag.


Edited by Acix - 12/27/13 at 5:59am
post #479 of 2683

I am not sure about what Tyll meant with tizzy, as I thought about something else than treble only, for example this definition from here:

-state in which you feel very worried, upset, and confused

-a highly excited and distracted state of mind

 

Maybe, at the end and in the sense of disappointment, while expected more, he simply got displeased, maybe even confused, by their presentation/performance? I mean, I can imagine that someone could get annoyed / bothered by lower level of performance, while you expecting flagship to perform close to perfect, so, you call them tizzy, instead of call them bad or else, which also caused a lot of comments, because while he did said that he do not want to trash them, he did it anyway.

 

Same happened to me, when I got pretty confused with PS1000, so, I dont know, just saying.

 

 

 

post #480 of 2683
think he's just referring to the highs man.
Edited by up late - 12/27/13 at 7:47am
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