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AKG K812 Pro - Page 109

post #1621 of 4053
Quote:
Originally Posted by SP Wild View Post
 

You're missing my point M13.  You can't agree that the HD800 is neutral when you clearly state that the Focals are neutral.  While we're on the topic of 812 and neutrality this is important.

 

Which one is it M13?  It can't be both...not even subjectively.


Oh Sorry. I think you misunderstand my point. I never said the HD800 was neutral. I said the Spirit Pro was. I think what I was agreeing was that the LCD-2 is also not neutral. That's all.

 

*For what it's worth I think the K812 is the closest to the Spirit Pro out of the flagships I've heard, which is what makes them kinda great for me.


Edited by M-13 - 3/3/14 at 2:13pm
post #1622 of 4053
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonido View Post

Well despite my rhetoric on why not to get the K812 right now, I went for it today. Why the sudden change of heart? I got to work today and started listening to the KEF M500. Perhaps I'm reaching, even hoping that the K812 could sound the way the HD800 did at work Friday. Oh well I guess we'll see. Time to sell my HE-500 and ESP950 though. I don't touch those anymore.


ROFL :veryevil:

 

Welcome to the club Sonido. Now things will really heat up once you get it!

 

My replacement pair should be coming in soon, like by Friday? I think maybe if all goes well.

post #1623 of 4053
Quote:
Originally Posted by M-13 View Post
 


Well yeah that's the graph and my logic is that I've listened to them and they're awesomely neutral. Haha. Give them a try if you're curious (or not whatever :p)

 

*also check out the raw measurements (not compensated) from Innerfidelity vs. flat speaker measurements in a well treated room (It's in the Spirit Pro Review ;)). BTW, the same man who created that graph you're using says the FSP is one of the most neutral headphones he's ever heard and put them up on his Wall of Fame as a reference studio monitor.

 

Yes.  The measurements of a flat speaker in a treated when correlated to headphones equal this:

 

 

 

I chose this headphone over the HD800 many years ago...and price had nothing to do with it as I paid 2K cash over the counter.  Because my ears told me they were more neutral than the HD800...I trust my ears, it just so happens that research since has complied with me.

 

M13, you have to understand.  Magnetos is never wrong.


Edited by SP Wild - 3/3/14 at 2:15pm
post #1624 of 4053
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonido View Post

Well despite my rhetoric on why not to get the K812 right now, I went for it today. Why the sudden change of heart? I got to work today and started listening to the KEF M500. Perhaps I'm reaching, even hoping that the K812 could sound the way the HD800 did at work Friday. Oh well I guess we'll see. Time to sell my HE-500 and ESP950 though. I don't touch those anymore.
Great and congrats. The more views from actual owners who hear these on their rigs the better.
post #1625 of 4053
Quote:
Originally Posted by SP Wild View Post

 

I chose this headphone over the HD800 many years ago...and price had nothing to do with it as I paid 2K cash over the counter.  Because my ears told me they were more neutral than the HD800...I trust my ears, it just so happens that research since has complied with me.

 

M13, you have to understand.  Magnetos is never wrong.

What? :confused:

 

First:

 

1. What headphone did you choose? (LCD-2?)

2. What is Magnetos? Magneto is awesome, but I think there is only one Magneto.

3. Why did you pay 2K for an LCD-2?

 

*I agree on trusting your ears. I trust mine too and that's why I was sure of the Spirit Pro before Tyll even measured them. I even created my very first thread on Head-Fi praising their neutrality.


Edited by M-13 - 3/3/14 at 2:20pm
post #1626 of 4053

Who's talking about the LCD2...I never brought up the LCD2 in this thread.  Ever.

post #1627 of 4053
Quote:
Originally Posted by SP Wild View Post
 

Who's talking about the LCD2...I never brought up the LCD2 in this thread.  Ever.


Really? What are you talking about then? I thought you guys were arguing about whether the LCD-2 was neutral or not?

 

Did you buy some nice speakers for 2K or something?

post #1628 of 4053
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonido View Post

Well despite my rhetoric on why not to get the K812 right now, I went for it today. Why the sudden change of heart? I got to work today and started listening to the KEF M500. Perhaps I'm reaching, even hoping that the K812 could sound the way the HD800 did at work Friday. Oh well I guess we'll see. Time to sell my HE-500 and ESP950 though. I don't touch those anymore.

 

Congratulations Sonido! Look forward to your impressions soon. :atsmile:

post #1629 of 4053
Quote:
Originally Posted by macbob713 View Post


Great and congrats. The more views from actual owners who hear these on their rigs the better.

 

+1

post #1630 of 4053

Sonido will put the Quickie on it. Haha.

 

Btw, I went to the forbidden site and saw Sonido caving because there was one K812 left and no one would buy it, so he had to. :veryevil:


Edited by M-13 - 3/3/14 at 4:14pm
post #1631 of 4053
Also wondering what headphone SP Wild is referring to.
post #1632 of 4053
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonido View Post
 

I wanted to add some more of my own personal research thoughts. I might get flamed for this unorthodox methodology. As we all know, some have mentioned concerns with these headphones, like Tyll, and other have not heard any of these issue and only talk about how great these are. Due to these inconsistencies, and not able to try them out myself, I wanted a more accurate way to determine how good these are, and a way to look past the various biases (new toy, early adopter, vindication of money well spent).

 

To try to normalize some of the bias, I decided to read up on some of the early impressions of the Beyerdynamic T1. Like the K812, these headphones were heavily compared to the HD800. Another similarity was that T1 also had issues in its graph, such as treble peaks. I chose about a couple months after the release to start reading, when at least a handful of people have obtained a pair. A solid place to start was page 48, about 3 months after the release date, and an informative post by Skylab:

 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/440799/beyerdynamic-to-launch-new-top-headphone-at-ifa-called-t1/690#post_6240528

http://www.head-fi.org/t/440799/beyerdynamic-to-launch-new-top-headphone-at-ifa-called-t1/840#post_6251421

 

Here MacedonianHero joins the fray:

 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/440799/beyerdynamic-to-launch-new-top-headphone-at-ifa-called-t1/1275#post_6306852

http://www.head-fi.org/t/440799/beyerdynamic-to-launch-new-top-headphone-at-ifa-called-t1/1335#post_6316126

 

Both very reputable forum members and contributors here. I read til page 100 or so as to get the general feel to how people were talking about those. I have to say the parallels were eerily similar. The ones who owned the headphones mostly talk about how these were on par or better than the HD800. There were comments about how the HD800 were too analytical, and the T1 was musical and more enjoyable. When some brought up the treble issues on the graphs, others countered with statements like "Graphs don't explain SOUND!! Or how the wave propagation is received by individual auditory capture devices."

 

Interestingly enough, neither Skylab or MacedonianHero own the T1 anymore. Granted, that doesn't mean much, as I'm quite guilty of being fickle with headphones myself. I don't think I've kept onto one for longer than 4 months since starting this hobby! Though most of those headphones were mid-fi headphones that I tried on my way to my current HD800 (M50, HD598, HD700, T90). I'm planning to sell my other two headphones besides the HD800 as well after the meet in April (HE-500, ESP950). I'm really loving my HD800 right now and I don't see myself selling them, but I've only had them since December, so who knows. However, unlike the headphones I went through, the T1 and K812, like the HD800, are all supposed to be endgame TOTL headphones.

 

I guess the takeaway is there definitely is hype and bias driving any headphone early on, and it's best wait it out. Looking at their profiles, it looks like Skylab has since moved onto the LCD-3, and MacedonianHero has sold his T1, but still owns the HD800. A great thing with a historical case study like this one is that you can see the end results. The T1 is definitely a great pair of headphones, but the general consensus today is that it's not quite on the level of the HD800. This was clearly seen when the T1 was on sale for $750, and unlike when the HD800 was sold at $890, there was not 4 pages of commentary that followed in the deals thread, and the deal didn't expire 20 minutes later. Even Tyll mentions that he does not place the T1 on the level of the HD800, and it sounds like he holds a similar view with the K812.

 

I don't know how the K812 will turn out, but history has shown one potential path the K812 could follow, and the parallels early on are similar. I didn't look too much into how early impressions of the HD800 were, but I read issues with brightness as well, and I'm sure there was just as much hype. In fact far more so. The first 20 pages or so on the announcement thread took place on the same day! So the K812 has the potential to follow the path of the HD800 as well. I guess unless you have to opportunity to listen and judge for yourself, early reviews are mixed with plenty of bias and should be taken with a grain of salt. Even if you get to listen to them, it's likely you'll still have some subconscious bias. From their reviews, I was surprised to find neither contributor owned the T1 anymore. But the more I thought about how the T1 is viewed today, it's not that surprising at all. Conscious or not, I'm sure that there was some bias in their reviews. The only surefire way around this is wait a while longer for a greater general consensus. A tried and true standard like the HD800 (and HD600 before that) is quite rare.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by M-13 View Post
 

Okay Sonido I'm about go on a F####  rant on you so put on your flame suit and take a deep deep breath. You may want to sit down as I'm about to drop a brick on your head.

 

Haha. Just Kidding. :tongue_smile:

 

Interesting post! I like it! Your research is the kind of crazy thing I myself would have done. History does repeat itself on Head-Fi A LOT I've been officially here 2.5 years now and another one year of solid lurking before that, on and off lurking since 2006 actually. I don't know how many times I've encountered the same circle of arguments.

 

I believe Skylab and MacedonianHero both held the T1 in high regard for quite a while and resisted selling theirs. I definitely remember Skylab keeping his for a long time and even defending it quite often. But I'm sure they are reading this thread and will chime in soon enough with their current thoughts. The biggest problem with T1 was quality control. Some sounded great while others did not. This issue came to light after multiple pairs were measured quite different (this happened much later though).

 

I was doing my own research and found Tyll's review of the Abyss. The treble problem he describes for the Abyss is very similar to what he's describing for the K812, although he gives the Abyss a "stuff we like" award, so I guess the problem was less prominent for him. As you know many here think of the Abyss as one of the best if not the best currently produced headphone out there. Read that review because the treble issue sounds a lot like the issue for the K812 Tyll is describing.

 

I also think opinions on Head-fi have evolved a lot more now as we have collectively journeyed through many many flagships upon flagships, hypetrain after hypetrain. Things have really heated up since about 2010 and we've seen a lot of flagships and their eventual flaw discoveries and fall from grace. I think this collective experience gives the community and reviewers better opportunity to detect flaws. Our analysis is much more advanced than when the LCD-2 hype train was going full steam and people were saying it's the most neutral/greatest/epic/truthful headphone ever invented. Haha.

 

Right now, the way things stand, hype trains are less and less likely to get going on Head-Fi. I'm telling you Anti-Hype is the new hip/in thing to do. A reviewer must mention 5 or 6 bad things about a headphone for every 1 good thing to have any credibility and even that good thing must be stated cautiously using words like "maybe," "perhaps". If you say 5 good things and 1 bad thing, you are suddenly a biased fanboy who is justfiying his spending, LOL. :veryevil:

 

Seriously, sometimes there is actually a great product with very little flaws (sometimes). I'm not saying the K812 is this necessarily, but it just annoys me that we've swung so hard in the opposite direction of the hype pendulum now and any kind of praise is automatically ignored, ridiculed, and generally curb-stomped.

 

In my mind, the best explanation for our current situation is K812 quality control problem. I bet you the two pairs Tyll has sounds different from the one MuppetFace has, and the one I had. And I bet they even measure different. When a product is having QA issues it's not uncommon to have 2 or more bad pairs sound the same. In fact all the bad pairs will sound the similar, and all the good pair will sound similar too. This happened with Ultrasone and also Audez'e. I've seen this play out before many times during my stay on Head-Fi.

 

And thus your T1 research is spot on as the T1 even to this day still has QA issues (although considerably less now I hear) :rolleyes:

 

*I hope to someday hear a super-pair, apparently these super T1s are amazing, like the fabled super LCD-3s. I think Purrin had one for half a day before it died on him and he's never heard another one like it (confirmed by Anax too, so it's not just him being drunk or being in a good mood).

 

*I also applaud you on going back a reading older threads. This is the passion of a true Head-Fier. Everyone should be doing this. Doing this has expanded my knowledge base considerably, while giving me perspective of how thoughts have evolved on Head-Fi. It makes me sad to think of all the members who are banned now, who contributed so much of their knoweldge (usually through various out of control rants :veryevil:). Like to this day I still miss Googeli and WarriorAnt from the old LCD-2 thread. (Also, rythemdevil aka Ortho-master-god)

 

Just a little history/clarification on my part...with a great tube amp, I feel the T1s are great headphones. I owned the first pair sold here in Canada and held on to them for several years. I sold off my HE-6s before I sold off the T1s...so that should tell you which one I preferred. But a few things happened over the subsequent years...I improved my front end (amp/dac). And as I did that, the HD800s definitely pulled ahead of the T1s. There's a good reason they (HD800s) are still here...they're in the top 5 headphones I've heard of all time. So the T1s were kinda left unused. Then I got my SR-009s and I needed to clear out some space. But again, I still hold the T1s in very high regard. :o 

 

I'm very curious to hear the K812s as they seem to measure very closely to the T1s with some improvements. 


Edited by MacedonianHero - 3/3/14 at 6:14pm
post #1633 of 4053
After several weeks of awaiting any word on the Phonitor2 I ordered from SPL USA, I cancelled my order and today pulled the trigger on the Lehmann Audio Linear SE amp, which I found on Amazon, in stock and good to go. Someone will have to break the news to NOMAX! This should pair well with the K812 and the HD800.
post #1634 of 4053
Quote:
Originally Posted by macbob713 View Post

After several weeks of awaiting any word on the Phonitor2 I ordered from SPL USA, I cancelled my order and today pulled the trigger on the Lehmann Audio Linear SE amp, which I found on Amazon, in stock and good to go. Someone will have to break the news to NOMAX! This should pair well with the K812 and the HD800.

 

I have a suspicion that the K812 should also pair well with GSP Solo SRG-II or Ultra Linear DE.

post #1635 of 4053
Quote:
Originally Posted by M-13 View Post
 

Sonido will put the Quickie on it. Haha.

 

Btw, I went to the forbidden site and saw Sonido caving because there was one K812 left and no one would buy it, so he had to. :veryevil:


It was actually all sold out at some point last night, but someone must have had buyer's remorse, and one came back in stock this morning. I took it as a sign. That and I went into work today and put on my M500. 5 minutes later, I went for the K812.

 

When I do my review on these, I think I'll be quite critical on them since I want them to sound as good as the HD800 with less than optimal amping (Schiit Vali). I really expect these to be at least 95% of the HD800 + Vali pairing. Main things I will be looking for are clarity, smoothness and lack of edginess, no annoying treble, and soundstage.

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