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Haha. Just Kidding.
Interesting post! I like it! Your research is the kind of crazy thing I myself would have done. History does repeat itself on Head-Fi A LOT I've been officially here 2.5 years now and another one year of solid lurking before that, on and off lurking since 2006 actually. I don't know how many times I've encountered the same circle of arguments.
I believe Skylab and MacedonianHero both held the T1 in high regard for quite a while and resisted selling theirs. I definitely remember Skylab keeping his for a long time and even defending it quite often. But I'm sure they are reading this thread and will chime in soon enough with their current thoughts. The biggest problem with T1 was quality control. Some sounded great while others did not. This issue came to light after multiple pairs were measured quite different (this happened much later though).
I was doing my own research and found Tyll's review of the Abyss. The treble problem he describes for the Abyss is very similar to what he's describing for the K812, although he gives the Abyss a "stuff we like" award, so I guess the problem was less prominent for him. As you know many here think of the Abyss as one of the best if not the best currently produced headphone out there. Read that review because the treble issue sounds a lot like the issue for the K812 Tyll is describing.
I also think opinions on Head-fi have evolved a lot more now as we have collectively journeyed through many many flagships upon flagships, hypetrain after hypetrain. Things have really heated up since about 2010 and we've seen a lot of flagships and their eventual flaw discoveries and fall from grace. I think this collective experience gives the community and reviewers better opportunity to detect flaws. Our analysis is much more advanced than when the LCD-2 hype train was going full steam and people were saying it's the most neutral/greatest/epic/truthful headphone ever invented. Haha.
Right now, the way things stand, hype trains are less and less likely to get going on Head-Fi. I'm telling you Anti-Hype is the new hip/in thing to do. A reviewer must mention 5 or 6 bad things about a headphone for every 1 good thing to have any credibility and even that good thing must be stated cautiously using words like "maybe," "perhaps". If you say 5 good things and 1 bad thing, you are suddenly a biased fanboy who is justfiying his spending, LOL.
Seriously, sometimes there is actually a great product with very little flaws (sometimes). I'm not saying the K812 is this necessarily, but it just annoys me that we've swung so hard in the opposite direction of the hype pendulum now and any kind of praise is automatically ignored, ridiculed, and generally curb-stomped.
In my mind, the best explanation for our current situation is K812 quality control problem. I bet you the two pairs Tyll has sounds different from the one MuppetFace has, and the one I had. And I bet they even measure different. When a product is having QA issues it's not uncommon to have 2 or more bad pairs sound the same. In fact all the bad pairs will sound the similar, and all the good pair will sound similar too. This happened with Ultrasone and also Audez'e. I've seen this play out before many times during my stay on Head-Fi.
And thus your T1 research is spot on as the T1 even to this day still has QA issues (although considerably less now I hear)
*I hope to someday hear a super-pair, apparently these super T1s are amazing, like the fabled super LCD-3s. I think Purrin had one for half a day before it died on him and he's never heard another one like it (confirmed by Anax too, so it's not just him being drunk or being in a good mood).
*I also applaud you on going back a reading older threads. This is the passion of a true Head-Fier. Everyone should be doing this. Doing this has expanded my knowledge base considerably, while giving me perspective of how thoughts have evolved on Head-Fi. It makes me sad to think of all the members who are banned now, who contributed so much of their knoweldge (usually through various out of control rants ). Like to this day I still miss Googeli and WarriorAnt from the old LCD-2 thread. (Also, rythemdevil aka Ortho-master-god)
Quote: Tyll Hertsens
I did echange emails with a member of the design team after receiving the first sample of these cans. I heard what I consider the treble problem immediately and after confirming what I heard with measurements I reported my findings to AKG reps. I also posted my measurements on Head-Fi.
During subsequent listening I gained further appreciation of the other stallar aspects of these cans. Response to my measurements ranged from dismay on the part of those who hadn't heard the cans, to disbelief by those who had. A number of reviewers who I respect heard these cans differently than I, so I thought it important to keep my opinion maliable for a while longer.
There was some additional clammor from enthusiasts thinking I had possibly got a poor sample pair, a possibility which both I and AKG reps also entertained. I requested a second sample. I listened and measured them upon receipt, and found them to be quite similar to the first pair received.
At one point, either in open forums or emails, I forget which, an AKG rep said maybe I should review them anyway as I found them to have strong points along with the problem I perceived. That, along with numerous request by email, PM, and post from enthusiasts finally convinced me to publish my opinion.
So, to your post Tony, I have no amp problems, two samples measured nearly identical so that's the production product in my mind.
It may be worth mentioning that the Beyer T1 measures very similarly to the K812, and I disqualify it as a flagship can for just about the same reasons. I like the overall sound of the K812 quite a bit better though.
They weren't faulty pairs.
HD800 and K812 are much more neutral than the veiled / warm LCD-2.
I feel the T1 belongs in Summit-Fi along with the HD800. I feel the 812 will suffer the same fate as the T1 due to not-invalid objective measurements where subjectively the T1 is far more tonally correct than the HD800 to my ears.
No Joke, if you have problems hearing the treble extension, speed and ambience without a treble boost that is your personal issue.
Sorry but this is nonsens. LCD-2 lack in treble for sure. Treble are his biggest issue followed by the small stage.
Speed -> the HD800 is able to display the music much faster than LCD-2.
I think you need to separate your subjectivity from objective facts.
Errr ... ummmm ... Well someone's gotta tell you. The HD800 isn't super neutral. It's noted for having quite an elevated treble. There are a lot of people experimenting with mods (on a $1500 headphone ) to help smooth out and lower the treble.
All I'm saying is people do hear differently and a flaw will kill a headphone to some but others are OK with it...this is purely subjective. The HD800 is a great headphone no doubt...to some the 8 khz peak is a deal breaker, the T1 peak at 10khz was OK with me, but was a deal breaker with others. The 812 may well have some measured flaws, but perhaps it has some great attributes that some will find far more engaging than perhaps what perceived flaw there might be.
On top of this...there is about as many recording variations as there are variables in headphone signatures...to make matters worse, how loud you listen opens a new can of worms.
I think to aid in understanding an EQ will help a lot. People need to get the notion out of their head that when they are applying EQ that they are changing the way a particular headphone sounds.
The better way to look at EQ is that you are not changing the headphone per se...but you are adjusting the recording, and if you understand how recordings are adjusted during production, you'll understand that a good headphone only benefits from EQ more than a lower tier headphone.
Wait.. did I just resurrect the LCD-2 thread? Will there be guest appearances by banned members? Haha.
If you want to find out if the LCD-2 is "neutral" go read the 1000+ page LCD-2 thread (the original one that was shut down).
Now Let's get back to the love fest that is the K812 appreciation
Magnetos no care. Magnetos on board train was once full, now empty. Magnetos like trash thread with LCD2 talk, after, give good universal advices.
seriously...I have the K701 on my head right now and am a bit of an AKG fanboy.
I don't think so. Maybe you have to change your point of view
Smooth or recessed treble like LCD-2 has nothing to do with neutral.
But anyway ... back to topic