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NEW Vali Schiit AMP!!! - Page 180

post #2686 of 4963
Quote:
Originally Posted by leesure View Post

Skooks, feel few to keep trying your tweaks. Did you spend thousands on a Tice clock too?

Do you own a Vali? I do. I have tried a VPI brick on it to no avail. I have read what the engineers at Schiit have written in explanation of the microphonics.

But go crazy. Buy your lead shot. Spend a thousand on a granite stand for a $119 amp. The economy loves you.

That's a bit over-harsh, don't you think? He was just voicing his opinion, and you could've expressed your criticism in a less antagonistic fashion.

post #2687 of 4963
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssrock64 View Post

That's a bit over-harsh, don't you think? He was just voicing his opinion, and you could've expressed your criticism in a less antagonistic fashion.

But his dismissal of my comments because of his assumption that I had less experience on HiFi than him was ok? I expressed my opinion is a respectful manner and had it intimated that I didn't have any idea what I was talking about. I have been tied to the HiFi industry in one way or another since 1990. I'm no newbie without a clue.

But it's Ok. Feel free to defend the guy who is making assumptions and gripe at the guys who actually have the device in question. That's your right.

I'm going to go back to enjoying done music through my Vali.
post #2688 of 4963
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenEnglish View Post
 

Quote:

 

 

Without the shot, plugging in the headphones resulted in ringing that lasted 1 minute, 16 seconds.

 

With the shot, the ringing went on for 2 minutes, 49 seconds.

 

 

I had a similar negative result, microphonics for me are about when I use the volume and when I channge headphones. I don't normally tap my case with a screwdriver as part of my listening!. Luckily my microphonics aren't too bad. Mass loding certainly has an effect though not always positive, I have many devices nowdays that are supported by light material (eg Torlyte) and even foam. The latter a tip I picked up from pro audio guys.

post #2689 of 4963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skooks View Post
 

Let me say to begin with... I don't have a Vali... yet. But I will soon. I have owned a lot of Schiit before and enjoyed each and everyone. Right now I am enjoying playing my HE-500's straight out of my Oppo 105. Or, playing CD's with the Oppo and going digitally into my Peachtree Audio Decco 65. Let me just say, as this is not the post to be talking about other products than the Vali, if you don't have an Oppo 105 for any number of reasons, you should consider this awesome machine on your next shopping spree. It is the most versatile single audio, and of course video, device on the planet. 

 

Now, back to the Vali, which as I said, I will buy soon just to see what all the fuss is about... both pros and cons. But, in the meantime, let me offer you Schiit Vali owners a tip that I learned before most of you were born. Go to your local gun and ammo dealer and buy a bag of lead shot. Lay that bag right on top of the Vali. It will dampen out all, or most all, cabinet induced ringing. I've used bags of lead shot on almost everything... even on top of speakers. And, if the esthetics bother you, just wrap the lead shot bags with the material of your choice... or your wife's choice. Then listen to the difference.

 

That's my shot of the day...

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skooks View Post
 

I’ve always used a 25# bag of lead shot which you can get at any gun store that sells re-loading stuff. And it doesn’t much matter what size shot. 

 
I don’t think the “seashell lead shot” is heavy enough… it looks like the heaviest they have is 8#. But, it is in nice wrapping/sack. But, as I said earlier, you can wrap whatever cloth around it for esthetic appeal.
 
Lead is the most “dead” of all the metals I know about. It absorbs sound and dissipates it.
 
In equipment cabinets or speaker stands, filling the posts with lead shot or a mixture of half lead and half kiln dried sand, which you can buy in bags at any building supply, like Home Depot, really does wonders with the music. It’s a combination of a very inert material and mass loading. You can use all sand, but it doesn’t have the mass weight that lead has. Sand alone is better than nothing, but not near as good as at least a mixture of half lead.
 
If you purchase a rack or stand from Sound Anchors... very heavy and well built... they use hollow steel posts but fill them with some inert material of their own. You don't have to tinker with their stands so much, but it might help to still put a bag of lead shot on top of the speaker itself. 
 
What happens in a speaker when there is no filler and bracing inside the cabinet? The cabinet vibrates/resonnates the sound back to the drivers and distortion is induced. So, the manufacturers of speakers go to great lengths to dampen the cabinet vibrations so the sound will be cleaner. But, they are not gonna ruin the esthetics of the cabinet with mass loading on the outside... but, you can and the soundstage becomes even better.
 
You know, years ago, there were all kinds of rumblings made when a speaker designer/manufacturer by the name of Bob Fulton came out with huge 2 gauge speaker cables that looked like big welding cables. It took special solderers to even solder the speaker lugs on those beasts. And everybody started poking fun and saying that their 12 gauge zip cord that they bought at a hardware store was all they needed. Then some audio crazy engineers started running sine waves thru Fulton's cable and the zip cord. The difference on a scope was revealing... the zip cord had all kinds of spikes throughout the frequency range... while Fulton's cables were very clean. Then others took off with the idea and many cable companies have sprung up even with power cables. And every cable has its own flavor. 
 
So, you doubters... go ahead and do as you please. Don't listen to a guy who has literally spent hundreds of thousands on audio in his lifetime and has tried every tweak to make it even better. My wife says i'm obsessed. That's actually what real audiophiles are... possessed... always wanting to make it a little better. If that wasn't true... then why read these forums and why buy something different? Or try something different?
 
I'm gonna buy some more shot tomorrow.

There's nothing wrong with being obbessed, but don't be offended when some one brushes you off. I'm sure you've heard, it's not what but how you say it... and your a little brash... not brash so much as almost a little "holier than thou" however, I feel on the obession and squeezing every LITTLE bit of extra out of your headphones or speakers! 

 

And I've got a Furman Power Conditioner in my set up and I found it to improve the clarity of my rig overall. As far as cables though, I think they come in at the bottom of many people's list of gear to get. I still run MonoPrice cables my self and will be for a good bit of time! 

 

Point being, appreciate that there are different levels of obession. Don't go around throwing the term "real audiophiles" around so lightly. Passion has a variety of ways of manifesting it self. As you know, some of us do not have thousands of dollars to experiment with cables. 

 

That said, to you who's whinning about the mircophonics... it's a $119 Sub miniture Tube Amp, they aren't marketing it to what you consider to be "real audiophiles" how ever many "real audiophiles" are enjoying it. For the price, it's a heck of an amp and you really should give it a try! 

post #2690 of 4963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mshenay View Post
 

 

 

There's nothing wrong with being obbessed, but don't be offended when some one brushes you off. I'm sure you've heard, it's not what but how you say it... and your a little brash... not brash so much as almost a little "holier than thou" however, I feel on the obession and squeezing every LITTLE bit of extra out of your headphones or speakers! 

 

And I've got a Furman Power Conditioner in my set up and I found it to improve the clarity of my rig overall. As far as cables though, I think they come in at the bottom of many people's list of gear to get. I still run MonoPrice cables my self and will be for a good bit of time! 

 

Point being, appreciate that there are different levels of obession. Don't go around throwing the term "real audiophiles" around so lightly. Passion has a variety of ways of manifesting it self. As you know, some of us do not have thousands of dollars to experiment with cables. 

 

That said, to you who's whinning about the mircophonics... it's a $119 Sub miniture Tube Amp, they aren't marketing it to what you consider to be "real audiophiles" how ever many "real audiophiles" are enjoying it. For the price, it's a heck of an amp and you really should give it a try! 

 

i've been that "obsessive audiophile" listening to music stopped being just that, i wasn't listening to music, i was listening to equipment,

not the same for me

i'm here to have fun, listening to music !

post #2691 of 4963
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaywillin View Post
 

 

i've been that "obsessive audiophile" listening to music stopped being just that, i wasn't listening to music, i was listening to equipment,

not the same for me

i'm here to have fun, listening to music !

Yea, I can do and enjoy both. I thankfully have a nice crappy Car Stero I use to the full :3, keeps me grounded and makes me home gear sound epic always.

 

But I can dig both ideals... heck I'm going through the trouble of balancing ALL of my headphones atm, and I plan on getting a nice $600 dollar RSA portable q.q, that would be the obbessive side of me... then there's me listening and LOVING my little Vali <3, I have a 4pin to SE adapter that I may keep around just for my lil Vali ^^ 

post #2692 of 4963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mshenay View Post
 

Yea, I can do and enjoy both. I thankfully have a nice crappy Car Stero I use to the full :3, keeps me grounded and makes me home gear sound epic always.

 

But I can dig both ideals... heck I'm going through the trouble of balancing ALL of my headphones atm, and I plan on getting a nice $600 dollar RSA portable q.q, that would be the obbessive side of me... then there's me listening and LOVING my little Vali <3, I have a 4pin to SE adapter that I may keep around just for my lil Vali ^^ 


oh i still love getting the most sound out of $$$ for sure, you know what i started with, and now i have the LCD2.2,  hifiman HE-5LE(on loan) my rs1i(out on loan) and a gs1000i

a vali, a lyr, and mjolnir , and the wadia 121, from here, i may make some sideways moves, doubtful i'll go much further "upstream"

post #2693 of 4963
@Skooks

Okay here's the thing about the bags of lead pellets. You'd be effectively adding mass to the case. Now this will reduce the natural frequency and the amplitude of the response of the case to an input (vibration). However, it does nothing to change the natural frequency of the parts in tubes themselves. If you plug in your headphones, tap the volume knob, or rub your headphone cable, that energy goes pretty much straight to your pcb and on to all the components thereon. Some of this goes to the case (and thus the bags of shot also) but all the shots are going to do is make sure the case vibrates less. As the case vibrates less, it absorbs less energy from the pcb. As a result the ringing will go on for longer. How much longer depends on a lot of things though.

For the sake of simplification, we've all had that something in the interior of our car that rattles, right? Putting bags of lead shot on the vali is like putting sacks of potatoes on the roof of your car and hoping the rattle inside the car goes away. (If you think of putting dynamats in your car, you put it where it resonates, right?)

So no, we're not doubters or worried about how our amps look. The method of just plonking bags of lead on the box does not work. Sorry. You add as much lead as you like to this problem and it won't do a thing.

With speaker cabinets, the purpose to do kill the resonance of (1) the cabinet itself (its panels and baffles within) and (2) control the resonance of the air mass within the enclosure itself. (1) really should be nonexistent as it will add peak and troughs to the fr. Adding mass to the cabinet helps (1) in a general sort of way. Again, this is to do with the exterior of the cabinet/case. If they want to kill a resonance at some panel inside the cabinet, they'll need to damp that panel itself, not just putting weight on top of the thing.

With most audio gear (amps, etc.), mass loading things work in general as it stops gear and stands from vibrating from air-borne and ground-borne vibrations. This is different. This is plugging in stuff to the board and turning the volume knob which is unusually close to the tubes plus tubes with what I suspect to be more resonant than your typical audio tubes. Quite a different situation.

My guess as to how to improve this would be to decouple the headphone jack from the board. Basically connect them together with flexible wires. And also to perhaps use a rubber or some other coupling between the volume knob and shaft. Finally, try to decouple the board from the chassis. Probably with a sheet of neoprene where the two are screwed together. This will stop energy getting to the board. It will also prevent it getting out which is a bit bad. So it's just trial and error mainly... if you're bothered by the microphonics it'sbest just not to use them tubes to start with, I'm afraid.
Edited by x838nwy - 1/5/14 at 6:35am
post #2694 of 4963

Having considered everyone's input regarding the use of lead shot, I've settled on BenEnglish's post as being the most sensible.  The bag of lead is likely to be effective at suppressing ringing caused by any stimulus against the case, but ineffective against a stimulus that acts against the PCB directly.

 

Ben's open-minded analysis (Click to show)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenEnglish View Post
 

Quote:

 

Oddly enough, I have a bag of #12 shot in the house.  I put it on top of the Vali and repeated a couple of my earlier tests.

 

Without the shot, tapping on the case with a screwdriver resulting in ringing lasting 1 minute, 7 seconds.

 

With the shot, the ringing went on for 31 seconds.

 

Without the shot, plugging in the headphones resulted in ringing that lasted 1 minute, 16 seconds.

 

With the shot, the ringing went on for 2 minutes, 49 seconds.

 

The following is my theory about what's happening:  You're right that the weight on the case helps dampen cabinet induced ringing.  However, if you get past the cabinet and vibrate the board directly (in this case by plugging in the heaphones) then the cabinet damping actually makes the problem worse.  The cabinet can't absorb any of the vibration that was fed into the board, leaving the board (and, by extension, the tube internals) to vibrate by itself until it settles down.

 

If I were to have my amp set up so that it never needed to be touched, I think the bag-of-lead-shot-on-top trick would be very useful.  But since I need to touch it occasionally to adjust volume or plug in headphones, I think I'll skip the lead shot.

 

Fascinating little experiment, though.  Thanks for the tip.  It might come in handy for me some day.

 

 

 

Mike

post #2695 of 4963

and here's my feeling on "tweaks" perception is 99.999999% reality, if we think it works, then it works

so much of this hobby, is subjective, what works or i perceive as working, for me, you may not hear

post #2696 of 4963
Quote:
Originally Posted by zilch0md View Post

Mike

Yup. I agree.
post #2697 of 4963
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaywillin View Post

and here's my feeling on "tweaks" perception is 99.999999% reality, if we think it works, then it works
so much of this hobby, is subjective, what works or i perceive as working, for me, you may not hear

This very much depends on whether it's a "tweak" which i'd say is an effort to improve what you hear or a "fix". The Vali's ring I'd call a fix. And you either fix something by reducing it or you just don't. There's no perception involved other than whether or not the degree to which it is reduced is acceptable.
post #2698 of 4963

(an attempt at lightening things up...)

 

How's this sound on that Vali?

 

post #2699 of 4963
Guys,

May I ask which of the two tubes is for which channel? I'd assume the one closer to the pot and headphone jack will ring a lot more than the other. Are my assumptions correct?

Thanks

C
post #2700 of 4963
Quote:
Originally Posted by x838nwy View Post


This very much depends on whether it's a "tweak" which i'd say is an effort to improve what you hear or a "fix". The Vali's ring I'd call a fix. And you either fix something by reducing it or you just don't. There's no perception involved other than whether or not the degree to which it is reduced is acceptable.


good point, and with this particular problem, well, i wouldn't really say its a problem , for me anyway, its just an issue i deal with, i've bent the leads, re-attatched the tubes to the pads, very little ringing here

i keep my touch light, and don't mess with the volume very much,

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