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The Sad State Of The So Called Audiophile DAP Market - Page 67

post #991 of 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by lee730 View Post
 

I figured you'd put it down based on your last experience with the other Hisound player.

 

I thought I would too, but my hips ears don't lie.

 

The sound is a good deal more refined than the BA. The treble, while *slightly* emphasized, is of top notch quality to my ears, making the entire spectrum come off as more refined and detailed.

 

Dat hiss and noise, tho...

post #992 of 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by eke2k6 View Post
 

 

I thought I would too, but my hips ears don't lie.

 

The sound is a good deal more refined than the BA. The treble, while *slightly* emphasized, is of top notch quality to my ears, making the entire spectrum come off as more refined and detailed.

 

Dat hiss and noise, tho...


The hiss varies with each pairing, sometimes it's passable, other times not. I have used some IEM that are unbearable though for example right now the T-Peos H-300 are virtually dead silent. the old 1Plus2 it's just very subtle, the RDB V1 are quite good. each IEM will make the Studio behave differently with hiss levels.

I hope you enjoy your time with Studio V, I find it quite capable with the right synergy. 

post #993 of 1307

I ended up selling my 3rd ANV in the end. Still is a very good player but synergy is key in the end. I kept the BA due to how well it pairs with my current IEMs across the board. Probably pairs the best with the SE5s. I agree on the hiss but for most purposes the amount of hiss it has is a non-issue. I'd generally listen around volume 11 if not slightly less. Note that swapping out the firmwares really improved the BA by a nice margin, making it closer in sound to the 3rd ANV.


Edited by lee730 - 3/8/14 at 6:07pm
post #994 of 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThickGlasses View Post
 

They [Apple] must have done some software update that decreased the SQ dramatically, but only for the stock "Music" player [in iOS7]. I try Denon's free equalizer app and Accudio and it sounds like before the update (except, you know, equalized), but I switch to "Music" and it sounds like I switched to a 128kbps file!

 

Oh, dear--that stinks. I'm considering getting an iPhone eventually, perhaps as my next phone. I don't intend to use it as a DAP, but the comments about the iPod Touch have stirred my curiosity. Unfortunately, the iPod uses the same OS as the iPhone! Let's hope iOS version 7.1 fixes the problem.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalFreak View Post


Very nice, I've been contemplating doing a shootout on my YT involving my own Studio V and AK player vs the X5. Problem being I have no idea who to see to get a review X5 unit :mad:

 

Yes, I'd be interested in your opinion of the X5.


Edited by bcarr112281 - 3/8/14 at 9:28pm
post #995 of 1307
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by highfell View Post


LOL you just don't get it - that is precisely why the thread is so long. The DX50 produces a great sound.


Sorry to say this to you fellow bopper but the DX50 IS NOT great sounding. Compared to my Studio V and my AK120 the player gets completely owned.

post #996 of 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalFreak View Post
 


Sorry to say this to you fellow bopper but the DX50 IS NOT great sounding. Compared to my Studio V and my AK120 the player gets completely owned.

 

Glad my instincts held out on that purchase :P.

post #997 of 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by zilch0md View Post
 

That's for real!   

 

http://www.tera-player.com/

 

 

Utterly amazing. I don't give a rat's behind how good the thing sounds, I wouldn't buy one from him because he comes across like a complete d-bag....lol.

post #998 of 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by H20Fidelity View Post

There's even a thread in the portable amps section seeking to find the 'perfect amp" which arose not long after DX50 release, almost every photo you see of DX50 in the pictures thread has an amp tied to it, very rarely do you see it used as a stand alone player.
You know what? You are absolutely right! I don't think I've seen a DX50 by itself! Even when I tried it, the owner had an amp attached to it. Wow.
post #999 of 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by H20Fidelity View Post

DX50 to my ears had technical ability no stronger than an iPod 5.5G, areas such as separation (which are noticeably weak) and soundstage narrow. What tricks people into thinking DX50 sounds good is it does have the single aspect of decent resolution "if" you pump the amp section hard (use high volumes), but what's the point if the musics smearing and losing coherency? I had to lift the volume quite high to get good detail extension my Rocco BA could do idling, This is why not long after release many members starting finding drastic improvements adding an amp to DX50, and so it came to be everyone started buying amps to use the player from line out.


There's even a thread in the portable amps section seeking to find the 'perfect amp" which arose not long after DX50 release, almost every photo you see of DX50 in the pictures thread has an amp tied to it, very rarely do you see it used as a stand alone player. I know some members who sold their iBasso because they found the $100 Colorfly C3 superior, having owned C3 for over a year I know exactly why they did that. My DX50 was gone shortly after purchase for a few reasons, I would of been willing to live with the bugs and UI if the sound was good enough though it really wasn't. Yet after all this time my Colorfly C3 stays, I've never thought of selling it.


My opinion doesn't come from reading user experiences, it comes from hands on experiences, as you can see the list of sources on my profile.

Likewise, I have both the Ipod 5.5 and the DX50 and I would respectfully disagree, as you are clearly an experienced reviewer with an open mind.

I think the DX50 has far better soundstage and clarity and has great 'musicality'- perhaps I have though a more biased/subjective view.

There are enough other users to indicate that the Dx50 isn't a "dog" sound wise , but rather a "star" sound wise (especially considering it's relatively low price).

It is clear that UI is a challenging issue for all niche DAP manufacturers. They don't have the resources. Some have a very minimalistic one, eg the Terra player , others struggle , no question about it. I would rather they struggle with it, than give up, but still produce DAPs for us to enjoy.
post #1000 of 1307
My last dap was c4, while i enjoy its sound and format i am over the poor UI dap. I don't see myself spending any more crazy money on what i consider a half finished dap.

i still prefer my idevice stack alot alot more than my c4 and ak120.
post #1001 of 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalFreak View Post


Sorry to say this to you fellow bopper but the DX50 IS NOT great sounding. Compared to my Studio V and my AK120 the player gets completely owned.

We'll agree to disagree then. The DX50 does sound good not just to me but many others. The AK120 isn't a fair comparison given the 8 times higher price.

The Studio V is though. I hadn't heard of that one. It has some very good reviews. Interesting. Hissing into CEMs could be a problem for me but nevertheless it would appear to be a good comparator against which to judge the DX50, and I would I like to see more (given your history of negative comments about the DX50, I think your comparison might not be totally objective -smily_headphones1.gif )
post #1002 of 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by highfell View Post


Likewise, I have both the Ipod 5.5 and the DX50 and I would respectfully disagree, as you are clearly an experienced reviewer with an open mind.

I think the DX50 has far better soundstage and clarity and has great 'musicality'- perhaps I have though a more biased/subjective view.

There are enough other users to indicate that the Dx50 isn't a "dog" sound wise , but rather a "star" sound wise (especially considering it's relatively low price).

It is clear that UI is a challenging issue for all niche DAP manufacturers. They don't have the resources. Some have a very minimalistic one, eg the Terra player , others struggle , no question about it. I would rather they struggle with it, than give up, but still produce DAPs for us to enjoy.




I can agree on the PRaT or 'musicality' you're talking about which is often found in Wolfson WM8740, I find similar aspects from IHIFI 760. DX50 does have a sense of forward motion to your music a little like a car that has good momentum flowing down a highway, (foot tapping) however I don't see the point when you're needing to pump the  HO amp section so hard you're literally forcing detail out of the player, I had to raise the volume to excessive levels to get vocal detail my Rocco BA can do simply idling at a much more comfortable listening level. You're basically having to listen loud and that's not a good sign.

Often when I see people praising DX50 or calling it a "star" I wonder what other gear they've heard or their point of reference. I'm not trying to come across as pompous or superior though I think anyone who's approaching from an iPod player would be happy with DX50 because they're hearing that resolution I mentioned, which is fine if you want to listen to some clarity that's not a problem. It's little like the Sansa Clip where people immediately hear the clarity jump out at them then instantly think it's better than say player B, Unfortunately there's a lot more to sound quality than a dump of clarity and the problem is DX50 doesn't have much else going for it on a technical level.

The problems with DX50 are the soundstage is congested, (narrow) , it lacks air and has poor separation,  when you add all those negatives up in one bucket they form a pretty big problem because congestion and closed in stages cause smearing and a bogged down crowded presentation. .This was overly obvious to me, even my Colorfly C3 has stronger instrument separation and a wider soundstage. So when you add that with excessive volumes it becomes a pretty unwanted listening participation for me, I'm well aware some people are happy with the unit and there's nothing wrong with that, but I will say how I heard it. Maybe my point of reference is slightly different, though after A/bing with the Rocco BA unit I sold DX50 for thosde reasons.


I've mentioned this in the DX50 thread, especially about the separation: If you have an IEM that is capable of strong instrument separation, one that excels in that area or soundstage width for example by using DX50 you're bottle necking the earphone, have a listen next time you use your DX50 and tell me how easily you can make out all the instruments in a busy passage of a song. it might sound ok but I can assure you it can be a lot better. I think we all know your set up is only a good as the weakest link, so for me with my Rhapsodio hybrid  I was being deprived of  areas I know it could perform because DX50 was capping them short. Connect them back up to my Rocco BA or Studio and V and they came back out of their shell showing me what they're capable of again. I just think DX50 limits what your headphone/IEM perfomance in general. 

 Don't let this stop you enjoying though. 
:smile: 

post #1003 of 1307

I somehow think that the purchase price should not be a factor in the performance expectation here.

 

I'd rather see cost of manufacture used as a metric if the dollar value is to be used at all. I suspect each player is probably within 100 dollars of each other on that scale.

post #1004 of 1307

Hello lads - a quick question - especially for the likes of Arly, Lee, H20, and Eke - who've heard multiple DAPs.

 

I've noticed a lot of reviews (and I'm only talking about DAPs here) often reference imaging and sound stage.  This continually puzzles me.  My understanding (unless we're merely talking about crosstalk implementation) is that sound-staging especially is mainly influenced by the actual recording itself, and how it is miked.  If done properly, then sound-staging cues / information will be there.  If done poorly, they won't be.

 

The next influencer is the headphones.  If the cues / information are present - but the transducer is poor, or set-up for a narrow sound-stage presentation (eg closed phones like the ATH M50 or even lower end Grados where the transducer is very close to the ear), then the sound-stage will not have depth or sense of space.

 

What I don't get is reviews talking about how the DAP itself has good or bad staging.  If the DAP is essentially flat (20Hz-20kHz), and has a balanced presentation across that range, and doesn't suffer from crosstalk issues - then won't they simply reflect what is present in the recording, and able to be transmitted effectively by the headphones?

 

In my personal experience - the V3 is slightly on the bright side of neutral, and this gives it the rather pleasant 'illusion' of air and separation.  But by EQ (with same headphones), I gave my iPhone4 a similar (not quite as good) lift and the illusion of sound-stage / air / separation was also increased.  I'm starting to think that if I was an expert with EQ (and I'm not) I could probably get pretty close to the presentation of the V3's default sig (with an iP4).

 

Which leads back to my earlier question I guess.  I can understand comments in reviews regarding warm / neutral / bright.  Even comments on presentation such as airy (ie tending towards brightness).  But the sound-stage comments leave me a little puzzled.

 

Thoughts .... ?

post #1005 of 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooko View Post
 

Hello lads - a quick question - especially for the likes of Arly, Lee, H20, and Eke - who've heard multiple DAPs.

 

I've noticed a lot of reviews (and I'm only talking about DAPs here) often reference imaging and sound stage.  This continually puzzles me.  My understanding (unless we're merely talking about crosstalk implementation) is that sound-staging especially is mainly influenced by the actual recording itself, and how it is miked.  If done properly, then sound-staging cues / information will be there.  If done poorly, they won't be.

 

The next influencer is the headphones.  If the cues / information are present - but the transducer is poor, or set-up for a narrow sound-stage presentation (eg closed phones like the ATH M50 or even lower end Grados where the transducer is very close to the ear), then the sound-stage will not have depth or sense of space.

 

What I don't get is reviews talking about how the DAP itself has good or bad staging.  If the DAP is essentially flat (20Hz-20kHz), and has a balanced presentation across that range, and doesn't suffer from crosstalk issues - then won't they simply reflect what is present in the recording, and able to be transmitted effectively by the headphones?

 

In my personal experience - the V3 is slightly on the bright side of neutral, and this gives it the rather pleasant 'illusion' of air and separation.  But by EQ (with same headphones), I gave my iPhone4 a similar (not quite as good) lift and the illusion of sound-stage / air / separation was also increased.  I'm starting to think that if I was an expert with EQ (and I'm not) I could probably get pretty close to the presentation of the V3's default sig (with an iP4).

 

Which leads back to my earlier question I guess.  I can understand comments in reviews regarding warm / neutral / bright.  Even comments on presentation such as airy (ie tending towards brightness).  But the sound-stage comments leave me a little puzzled.

 

Thoughts .... ?



I usually just A/B with another player, using the same track/headphone to judge stage width, or if it's rather wide I can pick up on that, or even more so identity if it feels closed in, there's a certain area I can feel when wearing the IEM around my face. For example, a closed in stage doesn't reach much past the edges of my outer ear, a wider stage samples will be cueing a 2-3 inches outwards. I have a few tracks I use which I've known for a long time, and judge soundstage using those and the same earphone between two players. Not sure what the others answers will be. 


Ask Lee about the crazy soundstage I heard one day when stuff was flying around the room. I think that  story stuck with him quite strongly. :wink_face: 

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