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The Sad State Of The So Called Audiophile DAP Market - Page 65

post #961 of 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by eke2k6 View Post
 

 

Precisely (the underlined part). Would you not then want a device that gives you a song exactly how it was recorded? 

 

The blue part is a bit of a stretch, as ocular and auditory processes are very different. I'd go into detail, but I don't want it to seem like I'm a graph evangelist...which I'm not.

 

Btw, here are the measurements for the "sucky" ipod touch. Compare them to "more capable" DAPs if you please.

 

 

The relationship between a compressed file and what went on in the studio could vary for a lot of reasons. The relationship between a music player's amp and the speakers it's trying to drive can vary greatly (i.e. it may not provide adequate power and control). The headphone itself has its own deficiencies from it's inability to reproduce the lowest and highest notes, to its slopes across the spectrum (as not one is truly “neutral”).

 

I, for one, don't want to simply pretend all the variants don't exist. I can't compensate for all of the pitfalls, but I can make up for a few with equalization. The better sound I hear from my Android phone over my Apple device is proof.

 

I bought the HiFiMAN HM-802 to satisfy my own curiosity, but I'm with you on the boutique DAP thing. I also am not a believer in ever larger bit-rate files (but I haven't tested that yet). The HM-802 does sound nice with headphones though (I must admit). It obviously has a better amp section than my iPod or my S2. The 802 UI is buggy. I don't have the IEM amp card but can't imagine it making that much of a difference. The reason why my Android phone sounds better than the 802 (using the Shure SE846) is because of equalization of various factors.


Edited by truckdriver - 3/4/14 at 8:41am
post #962 of 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by truckdriver View Post
 

 

The relationship between a compressed file and what went on in the studio could vary for a lot of reasons. The relationship between a music player's amp and the speakers it's trying to drive can vary greatly (i.e. it may not provide adequate power and control). The headphone itself has its own deficiencies from it's inability to reproduce the lowest and highest notes, to its slopes across the spectrum (as not one is truly “neutral”).

 

I, for one, don't want to simply pretend all the variants don't exist. I can't compensate for all of the pitfalls, but I can make up for a few with equalization. The better sound I hear from my Android phone over my Apple device is proof.

 

I bought the HiFiMAN HM-802 to satisfy my own curiosity, but I'm with you on the boutique DAP thing. I also am not a believer in ever larger bit-rate files (but I haven't tested that yet). The HM-802 does sound nice with headphones though (I must admit). It obviously has a better amp section than my iPod or my S2. The 802 UI is buggy. I don't have the IEM amp card but can't imagine it making that much of a difference. The reason why my Android phone sounds better than the 802 (using the Shure SE846) is because of equalization of various factors.

 

Sounds like you might enjoy tinkering with one of the Cowon players.....they have a plethora of DSP and equalization tricks built in. You can make them sound pretty much how you want, with some trial and error....yet out of the box with all that stuff disabled, there is nothing special about their sound.

post #963 of 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by truckdriver View Post
 

 

The relationship between a compressed file and what went on in the studio could vary for a lot of reasons. The relationship between a music player's amp and the speakers it's trying to drive can vary greatly (i.e. it may not provide adequate power and control). The headphone itself has its own deficiencies from it's inability to reproduce the lowest and highest notes, to its slopes across the spectrum (as not one is truly “neutral”).

 

I actually agree with you here. I'm just saying you get a relatively pure signal from the newer apple devices >= 4th gen.

 

Play around with your Touch 5g some more. There are plenty of apps on the store that can do what you've done with Viper.

post #964 of 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by meat01 View Post

How does a DAP affect the soundstage? Soundstage is created from the location of the microphones on the recording or the distance the sound driver is from your ear. If the soundstage is narrow, it isn't the DAP's fault.
From my experience, the placement of instruments can change depending on how the DAP processes the audio. I'm not sure if there's an objective measurement for this (crosstalk maybe?), but if you switch up amps, you can notice a difference. Binaural recordings are some of the best test tracks for this.


^ Awesome album smily_headphones1.gif
post #965 of 1307

I have a Rockbox'd Clip+ and a Cowon iAudio 9 (with BBE). I also have a Galaxy S1 (with Voodoo). I've tinkered with them for years. It's not the same. To me, those DSPs quickly distort or thin out the sound like other apps do (i.e. Music FX for Android, Neutron and the various programs for iOS).

 

I can only guess, but I think the main difference between Viper4Android (V4A) and the others (besides some kernel level activity) is the amount of processing power used in real time. My old Galaxy S2 has a dual-core processor which is the minimum the app requires to do what it does. I had to delete programs and shut everything down except the music player and V4A. As far as I can tell, I can make changes without grain or thinning.

 

The reason I'm still looking is (with the S2) the output impedance is almost the inverse of (supposedly) what is ideal. The EQ function needed to compensate for that does work to an extent but (I feel) is taking away from the power needed to do other sound shaping. I want a device that starts out better with the 846. As I've said before, it would be nice if Viper was available for a jailbroken iPod Touch 5G.

 

Again, I've tried a lot of programs for iOS with no success. Apple is not going to allow heavy processing and operating system level activity. The best of the programs I've tried with iOS is Bongiovi DPS.

 

Android doesn't allow processor intense apps or kernel access either. My S2 had to be rooted to get the sound it should have had (and was capable of) all the time.

post #966 of 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achmedisdead View Post

 

Sounds like you might enjoy tinkering with one of the Cowon players.....they have a plethora of DSP and equalization tricks built in. You can make them sound pretty much how you want, with some trial and error....yet out of the box with all that stuff disabled, there is nothing special about their sound.

 


Agree with you very much. Still loving my Cowon J3 after nearly 3 years with it. I have several earphones (Etymotic, Phillips, Alessandro (Grado upgrade)), and I can sort of "equalize" the sound of each of them toward a similar sound. All the EQ options are very sublime and well-implemented to cause no discernible distortion to the signal, unlike several Sony DAPs and even the Sandisk ones.
post #967 of 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achmedisdead View Post

 

Sounds like you might enjoy tinkering with one of the Cowon players.....they have a plethora of DSP and equalization tricks built in. You can make them sound pretty much how you want, with some trial and error....yet out of the box with all that stuff disabled, there is nothing special about their sound.

 


Agree with you very much. Still loving my Cowon J3 after nearly 3 years with it. I have several earphones (Etymotic, Phillips, Alessandro (Grado upgrade)), and I can sort of "equalize" the sound of each of them toward a similar sound. All the EQ options are very sublime and well-implemented to cause no discernible distortion to the signal, unlike several Sony DAPs and even the Sandisk ones.
post #968 of 1307
You must be referring to sandisk OF. With rockbox the 10 band EQ is more configurable than any other on the planet. All frequencies can be changed by as little as 1hz, and the Q as well. If you encounter distortion its because you have to set pre cut manually. If you just go boosting away without compensating you clip the signal :P
post #969 of 1307
I was long time Cowon custmer beginning from their classical model X5L, and still have S9 which i enjoy a lot as go anywhere solution.

still there is no comparison of Cowon to Colorfly C3 especially amped or RWAK just phone out without any amp. main difference is naturalness and black space, both C3 and RWAK sound much more refined, easier, fuller in timbre and dynamics and offerng better instrument separation.

Sorry, i also have couple of iPods and iPhones, not my but of my girls in family, and trying them out i never could reach satisfaction which RWAK or amped C3 can give me.
Edited by Gintaras - 3/4/14 at 3:24pm
post #970 of 1307
Thread Starter 

Bleh, I just quickly read through a few pages of the DX50 impressions thread. The last few pages there's posts from various people complaining of volume spikes and a few complaining of lock ups. The very last couple of pages is full of certain people testifying how their player has been flawless and there's even one post from a certain someone belittling the volume spike posts in a rather veiled way. I should stay out of that thread, it always makes me shake my head in dismay.

post #971 of 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalFreak View Post

Bleh, I just quickly read through a few pages of the DX50 impressions thread. The last few pages there's posts from various people complaining of volume spikes and a few complaining of lock ups. The very last couple of pages is full of certain people testifying how their player has been flawless and there's even one post from a certain someone belittling the volume spike posts in a rather veiled way. I should stay out of that thread, it always makes me shake my head in dismay.

That's been going on since the release date, whenever someone mentions an issue a series of posts after try to protect the player like the crown jewels are being compromised. Seriously part of the reason why I sold it.
Edited by H20Fidelity - 3/8/14 at 2:28am
post #972 of 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalFreak View Post
 

Bleh, I just quickly read through a few pages of the DX50 impressions thread. The last few pages there's posts from various people complaining of volume spikes and a few complaining of lock ups. The very last couple of pages is full of certain people testifying how their player has been flawless and there's even one post from a certain someone belittling the volume spike posts in a rather veiled way. I should stay out of that thread, it always makes me shake my head in dismay.

I just realized that we live in the same city, so... Um, hello! The DAP market itself is in a horrible state of disarray when it comes to OS's. While not a DAP (although I mostly use it for one), the newest version of IOS on the iPhone 4S is atrocious when it comes to playing music.

 

They must have done some software update that decreased the SQ dramatically, but only for the stock "Music" player. I try Denon's free equalizer app and Accudio and it sounds like before the update (except, you know, equalized), but I switch to "Music" and it sounds like I switched to a 128kbps file!

post #973 of 1307
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThickGlasses View Post
 

I just realized that we live in the same city, so... Um, hello! The DAP market itself is in a horrible state of disarray when it comes to OS's. While not a DAP (although I mostly use it for one), the newest version of IOS on the iPhone 4S is atrocious when it comes to playing music.

 

They must have done some software update that decreased the SQ dramatically, but only for the stock "Music" player. I try Denon's free equalizer app and Accudio and it sounds like before the update (except, you know, equalized), but I switch to "Music" and it sounds like I switched to a 128kbps file!


Well hello there, its good to run across another head-fier from my city. Feel free to introduce yourself to the wrest of our small gang over in the group meets thread, we're a happy go lucky bunch

post #974 of 1307
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by H20Fidelity View Post


That's been going on since the release date, whenever someone mentions an issue a series of posts after try to protect the player like the crown jewels are being compromised. Seriously part of the reason why I sold it.


I was hoping that eventually the fans would  get tired and move along but weeks after the release of the player they're still going strong. Makes me wonder if these people don't have anything else better to do such as enjoy good music. I can only imagine what the impressions thread of the soon to be released DX90 will be like. From what I understand the DX90 will utilize the exact same OS as the DX50.


Edited by DigitalFreak - 3/8/14 at 9:29am
post #975 of 1307

I figure this is as good a place to post this.

 

Thanks to a few friends, I have the Sony ZX1, Hifiman HM901, Hisound Studio V 3rd anv, and the Fiio X5 coming in. The first 3 should be arriving today, and the X5 will follow early next week.

 

I plan on doing an extensive writeup comparing the sound of each to my iPhone 4, which I consider one of the best DAPs I've owned, as well as my rockboxed iPod Classic 6th gen hooked up to the Tralucent T1 and a prototype wood amp.

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