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The Sad State Of The So Called Audiophile DAP Market - Page 64

post #946 of 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by meat01 View Post

I don't get it. Which one is the CRT and which one is the HDTV? Why is one of them so much better or worse than the other? The latest iPod Touch is the 7th generation, but all of the Touches sound awesome and are easy to use. You can use different apps on the Touch or the cell phone to get the UI you want.

 

Do you have a time-machine because the iPod Touch 6th generation isn't out yet (and is slated for this year)?:D

 

In my analogy,  the CRT TV would be the iPod Touch 5G and the Galaxy S2 (with V4A) would be the HDTV. It's really not a fair comparison since V4A is processor intensive and customizable,  whereas Apple's player saves battery life and has few customizations. I purchased a lot of third party players for my Apple devices and some were okay but (in the end) Apple's own player sounded a little better to me.Apple's UI is great and very stable. It's a fine player

 

I've discovered that you really don't know that something is better until you hear it. It's the A/B-ing that reveals the difference. So, if you like keeping money in your pocket, don't compare music players.

post #947 of 1307
Quote:
 Do you have a time-machine because the iPod Touch 6th generation isn't out yet (and is slated for this year)?:D

Oops, you are correct.  I must have been thinking about a different iPod.

post #948 of 1307
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by meat01 View Post
 

Oops, you are correct.  I must have been thinking about a different iPod.


Speaking of which you guys think the next iPod Touch will be worth looking into? If they did a hardware upgrade in storage and the sonics I would probably stop to think about if it was worth it. How about you guys?

post #949 of 1307

Industry reporters have been saying Apple plans to phase out the iPod Touch in the coming years. Apple seems to be focusing more on its online streaming services which require you to have a constant connection. When the iPhone 5S and C came out there was no new Touch (per the usual release cycle). The C is looking like a Touch replacement.

 

At least for now, Android seems to be the platform where the audio tweaking developers are,-- and the place where the hardware makers are starting to take quality sound seriously.

post #950 of 1307

Apple has never cared about audiophiles and will never care. There is just too much effort and not enough profit. Result: No business of course.

 

I would suggest to lean on manufacturers who both care about the sound as well as user experience. They might not be perfect, but they are improving significantly good.

 

PS: I have never liked iDevice UI so I am actually quite happy with RB or other devices. You can shoot me, that's fine, but iDevice UI's suck IMO. I am not talking about responsiveness, blazing fast switches etc. It's the way you walk around in the UI.

post #951 of 1307
Thread Starter 
I think how Apple will be perceived within the next 5 years depends on how Cook chooses to defrentiate himself from Jobbs. The iPod was one of Jobbs products, I'm hoping he'll come out with an idea that will top the iPod and won't sacrifice sound quality
post #952 of 1307
Apple touch 5g running latest OS.

Touch 5G-Flacplayer app-Hifi-M8 via CCK to usbB port.
(Regular usbA port as per Centrance MFI design yields 24/48? or 16/48?).

2unene7a.jpg

a6aba9ed.jpg

apuvebyd.jpg

The new sony tempts me more than anything on the market atm as an all in one.
Edited by ExpatinJapan - 4/10/14 at 7:10pm
post #953 of 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmberOzL View Post
 

Apple has never cared about audiophiles and will never care. There is just too much effort and not enough profit. Result: No business of course.

 

I would suggest to lean on manufacturers who both care about the sound as well as user experience. They might not be perfect, but they are improving significantly good.

 

PS: I have never liked iDevice UI so I am actually quite happy with RB or other devices. You can shoot me, that's fine, but iDevice UI's suck IMO. I am not talking about responsiveness, blazing fast switches etc. It's the way you walk around in the UI.

 

Not caring abour audiophiles they have been able to roll out some of the best (objectively) headphone outs in business (Touch 5, iPhone 4s, iPad 3, iPad Air, iPad Mini).

 

Actually more than often Apple 'non audiophile' headphone outs mop the floor with 'audiophile' devices. Specially for driving very low loads the signal idevices provide the heapdhones with it's pretty hard to match even with outboard gear.

 

Just my 0.02


Edited by elfary - 3/4/14 at 3:50am
post #954 of 1307
I don't get the iPod hate. I understand you can dislike the UI as it is a personal preference, but iPods sound great. Some Audiophiles will never like an Apple product, just because the masses have them.

I do think the Touch will go away in the future. I believe it is too much a a niche as people generally just use their iPhones to play music and their iPads or iPhones to play apps.
post #955 of 1307

I wish there was a way to better enjoy the objective measurements of the headphone out of my iPod Touch 5G with my earphones. That is, other than hooking an expensive gadget to it and turning the Touch 5G into a transport because subjectively the sound isn't fun, dynamic, or enjoyable for some genres.

 

The soundstage of the Touch 5G is mostly a narrow corridor from ear to ear. Too much of the sound is in a small area making it harder to distinguish. With increasing volume, the sound goes from too small to shouting  partly because the sound is right on the ear

 

At relatively low volume, the iPod puts me to sleep. I listen while I drive, if I fall asleep, people could die. My music needs to make me bob my head to a lively musical presentation. Lives are at stake here! Okay, this part may be unnecessarily dramatic....

 

On my Android phone, the sound is bigger at relative volume matching with the Touch 5G. I think that is largely due to the bland equalization and soundstaging of the iPod (relative to my earphones). Viper4Android has room size adjustments and strength of sound field adjustments (just to mention a few). The results are the sound is off the ears and is more spacious, strong yet transparent, and more dynamic (IMO). The difference in sub-bass levels (between the Touch 5G and the S2) would just be absolutely obvious to anyone who can hear.

 

I don't hate my Touch 5G. I bought it in December 2013 after my Touch 3G started acting up. I do use it for stuff other than music however.

 

 I see the hate for popular items but I don't understand it. I guess some really do want to feel they belong to an exclusive elite club. I just want my music to sound good, I don't care if a billion other people have the exact same setup.

 

Edit to add: However, if it gets to 2 billion people (or more) or if my co-workers get it, then I have to turn on the hate.:evil:


Edited by truckdriver - 3/4/14 at 7:05am
post #956 of 1307
How does a DAP affect the soundstage? Soundstage is created from the location of the microphones on the recording or the distance the sound driver is from your ear. If the soundstage is narrow, it isn't the DAP's fault.
post #957 of 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by meat01 View Post

How does a DAP affect the soundstage? Soundstage is created from the location of the microphones on the recording or the distance the sound driver is from your ear. If the soundstage is narrow, it isn't the DAP's fault.


Don't say this in popular audiophile dap threads, they will eat you alive :D

post #958 of 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by truckdriver View Post
 

 

 

What I got from this is that Apple products suck because they're neutral sounding and don't use DSPs to artificially change the sound.

post #959 of 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by eke2k6 View Post
 

 

What I got from this is that Apple products suck because they're neutral sounding and don't use DSPs to artificially change the sound.

 

I don't think all recordings follow the exact same standards in the studio. I don't think all humans have the exact same hearing. I don't think a “neutral” pair of glasses would work for everyone so why would that be true for hearing? Samsung is probably on to something with personalized EQ based on tone tests. BTW,  I'm not talking about hearing problems but rather hearing differences.

 

If a frequency is not being clipped, what is the artificial part? Or better yet, it's all artificial so what's the difference?

post #960 of 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by truckdriver View Post
 

 

I don't think all recordings follow the exact same standards in the studio. I don't think all humans have the exact same hearing. I don't think a “neutral” pair of glasses would work for everyone so why would that be true for hearing? Samsung is probably on to something with personalized EQ based on tone tests. BTW,  I'm not talking about hearing problems but rather hearing differences.

 

If a frequency is not being clipped, what is the artificial part? Or better yet, it's all artificial so what's the difference?

 

Precisely (the underlined part). Would you not then want a device that gives you a song exactly how it was recorded? 

 

The blue part is a bit of a stretch, as ocular and auditory processes are very different. I'd go into detail, but I don't want it to seem like I'm a graph evangelist...which I'm not.

 

Btw, here are the measurements for the "sucky" ipod touch. Compare them to "more capable" DAPs if you please.

 

 

http://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/ipod-touch-5g/audio-quality.htm

 

Quote:
 

Output Noise Levels

-106.8 dBV, A-weighted, playing zeroes (silence).

-120 dBV, A-weighted, idle.

 

 

 

Quote:
 

Frequency Response

iPod Touch 5G Frequency response

 

 

Quote:
 

Jitter

Below is a devious test I devised that shows actual digital jitter as detected in the analog output. This is a very narrowband FFT of a 10,007 Hz sine wave.

Ideally it's just one spike, and any jitter is seen as a risen skirt or spikes around it:

iPod Touch 5G THD

 

 

Quote:
 

Summary         top

Confirming what I hear with critical listening, the iPod Touch 5G is a wonderful high-fidelity audio source. While publications funded mostly by advertisements from makers of expensive cables, power conditioners and outboard DACs don't want you to know this, the iPod Touch 5G is a better audio source than most DACs will be when connected to a computer or CD transport.

 

 

 

And I fully agree with his summary. I've had quite a few DAPs, DACs, and amps. I prefer the output of my iphone to most of them when driving low loads. Plus, I don't think I have to repeat how I feel about these gigantic "hi-res" files that are filled with fluff bits.

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