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The Sad State Of The So Called Audiophile DAP Market - Page 59

post #871 of 1307

lol epic!

post #872 of 1307
Since when did replies to e-mails have multiple "Re" things in the subject line?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: to the current topic
post #873 of 1307
Thread Starter 
Probably never but it's still a good laugh to read, lol. When I first read it my stomach ached from laughing so hard.
post #874 of 1307

Should do that to all the people I have been "tech support" for when they infect their computers and I get a phone call to come help them...not at work but at home.

post #875 of 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach-X View Post


That always makes me chuckle. As if those of us doubtful of dubious "audiophile" claims don't want good sound. Flowery rhetoric and sighted listening prove nothing. Why doesn't stereophile do real scientific testing? They'd lose all their readers who can't believe their $10000 amp sounds the same as a $200 one. Removing all your tags JUST to get your dap to play? The cheapest radio shack player reads tags just fine. If these companies can't put together a unit that provides basic functionality, what makes you think they know anything about sound? They don't fix them because suckers keep opening their wallets for the next broken iteration. Who's really in denial here?


So you honestly believe there is no difference? And then further go on to say that actually listening to these devices proves nothing? Ok, I think we'll just leave it at that for Mach-X....

post #876 of 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach-X View Post

That always makes me chuckle. As if those of us doubtful of dubious "audiophile" claims don't want good sound. Flowery rhetoric and sighted listening prove nothing. Why doesn't stereophile do real scientific testing? They'd lose all their readers who can't believe their $10000 amp sounds the same as a $200 one. Removing all your tags JUST to get your dap to play? The cheapest radio shack player reads tags just fine. If these companies can't put together a unit that provides basic functionality, what makes you think they know anything about sound? They don't fix them because suckers keep opening their wallets for the next broken iteration. Who's really in denial here?

And you didn't answer my post .....

I've done the volume matched blind tests, and although I know I can't tell lossless from AAC256 (ripped / transcoded from same master), I could definitely tell the Studio V3 from my iPhone 4. And I prefer the Studio (although the iP4 is still IMO a fantastic source).

So please list the audiophile DAPs you've extensively heard, the DAPs you've compared them to, and under what conditions - so that I can understand the assertions you're making.

Or shall I use your own quote - who is really in denial here?
post #877 of 1307

I would also like to know what DAP's Mach-X has heard. I'm also genuinely interested in his theory why listening to these devices isn't of any benefit. Maybe it goes back to what Lee said? to some 'music is just music' and with all due respect to Mach-X maybe he simply cannot hear a difference, if that is the case then I have no problem understanding his bold statements because to him in his world that is what he hears.

post #878 of 1307
The only time I felt that DAP and cellphone are around the samw was auditioning a Sony F887 in a very busy Sony shop, it felt the performance was almost on par with my Xperia Z phone... That was done using those new Sony earphones at the shop. Maybe the result would have been differrnt if using more revealing iem...

In other occasions, the SQ improvement from DAPs is immediately appreciated.
post #879 of 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by truckdriver View Post
 

The Sony NWZ-ZX1 has been in my online shopping cart for a week and I'm just not motivated to click the buy button. Some of my lack of motivation goes to installing Viper4Android  (V4A) on my old Galaxy S2 smartphone. I'm left to wonder what is suppose to be better about the ZX1.

 

Even without firsthand evidence, I can believe boutique DAPs sound better than an iPod (with the earphones I use). My iPod Touch 5G (using the SE846) with Apple's music player has a 2D in your face (reasonably clear) center mid-range. Some louder foreground sounds panned right and left are also passable in clarity (but not good). However, the quieter parts of music are blurred. The treble (no matter its location) is not sharp. The bass is so so and lacks sub-bass extension. The iPod's tonality sounds artificial. The iPod Touch 5G and 846 may just be a bad pairing.

 

My Galaxy S2 (after installing V4A) is better in all categories (clarity, bass, 3D soundstage, dynamics, etc) than my iPod Touch 5G (paired with the 846). Perhaps software improvements could raise the level of the iPod. I have many of the apps for the iPod (Accudio, Equalizer, EQu, etc.,) that are discussed here, but they don't help much IMO.

 

So again, I don't have any trouble believing the boutique DAPs are a step up from the iPod/iPhone sound, but would it be a step up for me now (post V4A)? I have my doubts.

I would like to point out that the S2 has dampening issues, audible stereo crosstalk and distortion due to a poorly designed audio circuit.

 

 

This is me whenever I read people arguing about DAPs, DACs, amps and cables. There is no electrically measurable difference, no difference that can be detected through blind testing. Yes I see no problem in discussing the various colourations tube amps can provide, but discussing solid state electronics which theoretically, when properly designed, should be 100% utterly, completely transparent is a waste of mental effort. Any differences are purely psychological. I rest my case.

Edit: I would also like to add that I passed the Golden Ears test, I am young (under 25) and my hearing is perfectly fine. Whilst I cannot hear any difference between sources, I do agree headphones can vary wildly in quality and sound properties.


Edited by iamthem - 2/23/14 at 9:07pm
post #880 of 1307
Thread Starter 

Congrats on hearing no difference in amps or DAPs. I wish I was you. It would save me a ton of money in this hobby. Excuse me, I'm off to hear some music and enter my psychological induced fantasy world that I consider better sounding gear that you consider placebo. Smoke me a kipper, I'll return from my audio induced bedlam soon.

:cool::D

post #881 of 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthem View Post
 

I would like to point out that the S2 has dampening issues, audible stereo crosstalk and distortion due to a poorly designed audio circuit.

 

 

This is me whenever I read people arguing about DAPs, DACs, amps and cables. There is no electrically measurable difference, no difference that can be detected through blind testing. Yes I see no problem in discussing the various colourations tube amps can provide, but discussing solid state electronics which theoretically, when properly designed, should be 100% utterly, completely transparent is a waste of mental effort. Any differences are purely psychological. I rest my case.

Edit: I would also like to add that I passed the Golden Ears test, I am young (under 25) and my hearing is perfectly fine. Whilst I cannot hear any difference between sources, I do agree headphones can vary wildly in quality and sound properties.

 

 

Well young person, you quoted me, but you didn't argue against any point I made. I did not argue that one device has a superior DAC and amp module over another. I didn't argue 0.003% THD is audibly better than 0.007% THD.

 

My argument is about software. V4A is software. V4A's driver solved the audible noise issues with my T-Mobile version Galaxy S2 (the only version with the Qualcomm and never had the Exynos processor noise issue). Perhaps you misread the line in my post (that you quoted) where I wrote: Perhaps software improvements could raise the level of the iPod.  Now if you want to argue that you can't hear the difference in software (for example, a 10db boost at 40Hz as oppose to a 2db boost at 100Hz) then you go ahead and make that argument (if you wish). The EQ and EQ app that I've used with my iPod do not do a good job and introduce audible distortion (even I can hear), Yet, I (with my non "golden ears") can't hear any introduction of distortion with mild to moderate adjustments with V4A.

 

V4A had to have root access to do what it does (possibly making changes at the kernel level). Maybe the changes warrant new measurement at the headphone out level (I don't know). What I do know is you don't need “golden ears” to hear distinct sub bass notes on the S2 that are completely inaudible on the iPod Touch 5G. The clarity difference is unmistakable as well. I've also said in the past that if something similar existed for the iPod, it too (potentially) could sound similar.

post #882 of 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthem View Post

This is me whenever I read people arguing about DAPs, DACs, amps and cables. There is no electrically measurable difference, no difference that can be detected through blind testing. Yes I see no problem in discussing the various colourations tube amps can provide, but discussing solid state electronics which theoretically, when properly designed, should be 100% utterly, completely transparent is a waste of mental effort. Any differences are purely psychological. I rest my case.


Edit: I would also like to add that I passed the Golden Ears test, I am young (under 25) and my hearing is perfectly fine. Whilst I cannot hear any difference between sources, I do agree headphones can vary wildly in quality and sound properties.
post #883 of 1307
Thread Starter 
Could we please not have a graph worshippers sit in. The threads been quite cordial and informative up until now. If the local crew of graph worshippers or iBassoites or NwAvGuY nymphs intend to turn this thread into a battlefield then I'll just message a MOD an have any offending posts pruned an be done with it. Debate in here is acceptable. Being condescending is not though. If certain people can't accept someone else's view then move along to another subject of discussion that's less likely to make you feel offended. I usually do this an I'm positive others can too.
post #884 of 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalFreak View Post

Could we please not have a graph worshippers sit in. The threads been quite cordial and informative up until now. If the local crew of graph worshippers or iBassoites or NwAvGuY nymphs intend to turn this thread into a battlefield then I'll just message a MOD an have any offending posts pruned an be done with it. Debate in here is acceptable. Being condescending is not though. If certain people can't accept someone else's view then move along to another subject of discussion that's less likely to make you feel offended. I usually do this an I'm positive others can too.


Or it winds up in the Sound ScienceFiction forum and is forever lost to the human race:eek:

 

I still wonder though, why no direct shoot out between a properly set up Android phone and DAPs has never been done.

post #885 of 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by miceblue View Post

 

so in that argument a Marantz CD63 CD player sounds the same as Linn CD12?

 

The source is the most important and most difficult to get right, I agree all properly 

designed amplifiers should sound the same, a straight wire with gain, but they don't.

 

A well designed NAD Integrated does not sound like Naim 55/500 amps

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