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The Sad State Of The So Called Audiophile DAP Market - Page 3

post #31 of 1303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hutnicks View Post
 

You seem to think it's up to the consumer to finance small companies.Charging a premium price on something of nebulous value that goes unsupported is justifiable because the company needs that money to survive. When exactly did the consumer audio market turn into a charity? You are asking the consumer to become your financier's in the hope that somehow somewhere sometime real soon now you'll make a product that actually works which the "financier" will then have the amazing opportunity to get gouged for again. Good thing you rely on the consumer to carry the freight here, any investor hearing that business model in a pitch would probably suggest you stick to making LED flashlights.

The consumer is not financing them. He's paying for their product and no one is forcing him. I'm just telling you that this is niche market and it will always consist of overpriced products compared to the products of big companies just because these small companies pay premium for everything because of the limited quantities they order and it a lot of cases they can't even get good-quality hardware just because the companies making this hardware deal with only big orders. 

In the end is up to the consumer to decide. Companies grow and improve with time. Look how Fiio started with products like E1 and E3 and now they are developing something like the X5. That's because the consumers have trusted them through these years and helped them reach to this current state.

And yeah, in a perfect world we would have the big companies like Apple and Samsung making audiophile DAPs with state-of-the-art hardware and software for us but sadly they are not interested in this market and that's why we have a choice - to go with their avarage consumer-oriented products or go with the small companies that lack the money and time to develop something that has both the hardware and software the and we want.

 

And again with Android - it's not the software in the meaning of apps it's Android itself. It's not a problem to play 24-bit audio on Android. The problem is that's downsampled to 16/44.1 and that's the output you get.


Edited by kova4a - 9/23/13 at 9:46am
post #32 of 1303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hutnicks View Post

...

Once again this is a complete management, not technological failure on the part of the companies and really needs to be viewed as such. If any company operates in that manner do they have the right to charge premium prices for a product? Should they  be in this industry at all?

 

While I can't say I am an expert on the topic, I have talked to some insider about the issue they are facing now. Some issue may or may not be just an irritation on the Western market, but it is an entire different story when you are in China. The thing I do agree is that the Chinese market is far from being mature. They might have the hardware of the 21st century but the software (including the software literally as well as management in general) is far from anywhere 21st century - all the same time they are playing the game of catch up while pushing the whole market forward. The market as a whole is not healthy and therefore individual industry isn't healthy as well. You need to understand that this is the country that opens itself up in 1979, but only really start to develop in the mid-80s - yet it only took them 20 years or so to modernize to a point that would take many countries a century or two to reach and becomes the 2nd large economy in the world, surely there must be a lot of holes in just about everywhere. They are still learning their way around - and that's something every country and every industry in the world has to go through at some point, even for the mighty Western market. If everyone has to stop because it is not optimized, we would have stayed in the dark ages. They will have their ups and downs just like everyone else and learn their way around. Trying to apply the Western market philosophy directly onto the Chinese market just won't work. A few years ago a few huge Singaporean companies did just that, trying to stick to strictly Western style management in their co-op project in China and ends up almost ruin the whole thing because that's not how the local operate. At the end they have to compromise and let the Chinese have some of their way. Well, this is really off topic but as you can see, you can't really take anything you learn from the West or grew up with and believe it should be the 'norm' in China. As far as my opinion goes, there is no such thing as 'norm' in China. Almost everything is experimental.


Edited by ClieOS - 9/23/13 at 9:54am
post #33 of 1303

If not having the perfect dap is literally making anybody feel sad, you're looking for joy in the wrong place. Consumption does not lead to contentedness. Didn't anybody learn anything from Fight Club?

post #34 of 1303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hutnicks View Post
 

Apple and Samsung is exactly the case you are talking about. Someone has something you need, you buy it. Or try to go it on your own and go bankrupt really really fast. If you do not think competitors work together when it benefits them you failed business 101.

 

That LED flashlight venture coming along?

No it's not the case. In this case you have a company like Apple that gives millions to Samsung and they manufacture this for them. "Someone has something you need, you buy it"? Really? How do you buy it when you are a small company that's making like 10K units (at best) and have like $100k to spend - you  obviously can't go and buy the things you need that cost 5 million - you compromise. As I said the big companies don't manufacture for small businesses. Ibasso can't go to Samsung and say - "we want 5 thousand AMOLED screens". Samsung will laugh at them and say - we can make you 1 million screens for 2 million bucks and that's the smallest order we'll take. That's how things work. So ibasso or Fiio will go to a small company that makes small quantities and will manufacture the needed quantity but those screens will be of inferior quality. The same with chips and thus you hopefully get my point.


Edited by kova4a - 9/23/13 at 10:07am
post #35 of 1303
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublea71 View Post
 

If not having the perfect dap is literally making anybody feel sad, you're looking for joy in the wrong place. Consumption does not lead to contentedness. Didn't anybody learn anything from Fight Club?

There is no perfect DAP but the DAPs we all use here make us totally happy. It's just a little gizmo that lets us take our music everywhere. It's maybe just the American way to want things better and better. It has nothing about consumption, this is just a nice hobby.You don't have to bring Buddha into it.:D

post #36 of 1303

Without getting in too deep, I kind of look at it as the happy state of the DAP market. Back when the first Ipods came out, I was thrilled just to have such a portable solution. But, while one could say they weren't that buggy, they were very limited. They were low resolution devices with limited storage and relied on a propriatory ALAC encoding. Really, they weren't made to be flexable, they were made to be "reliable" and, of course, encourage you to fill it at the Apple store. Not my style, I already own most of the music I am likely to listen to. It seemed silly to me to burn my CD's onto ALAC rather than the more universal FLAC or WAV etc.

 

So I bought a Zune, then a Cowan. Not as "slick" but more flexible and, especially in the case of the Cowan, better sounding. Now I am listening to my DX50 playing hi resolution files off an external 129Gb USB thumb drive. I haven't had much in the way of problems and in the last week or so many of the original limitations/bugs have been worked out, at least to my satisfaction. And the sound quality is better than any of the other players I have had experience with.

 

Would it have been better if every problem and flaw were worked out in advance? Sure, if that had been compatable with iBasso staying in business! At some point, you have to let the product out on the street or go broke... I am just happy that someone came in to the market with a sonically better mousetrap againt the odds of competition with one of the biggest companies in the world.

post #37 of 1303
Quote:
Originally Posted by robm321 View Post
 

This is the reason I still use my iMod. Current DAPs are severely overpriced for what you get or buggy as hell (usually both). I imagine they will refine their offering in the future, but as of now, they aren't ready for prime time IMHO

 

FYI, the OP had a bad experience with iMods. He is probably sick of reading that name.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicHolyGhost View Post
 

Tera player is European made, no display and supports wav only thus nothing to complain about.

 

My hats are off to the maker as they care about the blind audiophiles (no pun intended).

 

 

 

post #38 of 1303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Currawong View Post

I sold my DX100 PURELY because the software was driving me insane. I had to switch it off always to stop it draining the battery in a few hours, then wait 5-10 minutes for it to start up because I had it loaded with 120GB of music.

I'm considering the DX100, but software performance is a major reason I'm wary of getting one.

Which firmware version were you using?
post #39 of 1303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hutnicks View Post
 

The problems you describe are those of organizations who simply wish to run before then can walk.

 

And this is how I see the current situation with these DAP makers.

How many players have HiSound released these past 2 years?

Like 4 or 5?

None of them have at least decent firmwares!!!

Why not CONCENTRATE on just 1 player, work/iron bugs out! There's something called LESSONS LEARNED and QA in the industry, they should learn to use that and have it all documented so that software engineers or any "coders" they are using are aware of past mistakes and potential pitfalls.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achmedisdead View Post
 

 

I think there is plenty to complain about with the Tera Player....lol.

 

LOL!

I haven't personally used it, but yeah, definitely NOT for me...

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bcarr112281 View Post


I'm considering the DX100, but software performance is a major reason I'm wary of getting one.

Which firmware version were you using?


I actually like how the DX100/DX50 look but, I'm wary too... this is the only reason I've been sticking with the Cowon... (and battery life of like 30+ hours too! ;))

post #40 of 1303
Thread Starter 

Gentlemen/ladies, thank you all for posting your two cents on this thread. I also thank you all for keeping it civil thus far in here. Unfortunately, I can't say the same concerning what I read this morning on YouTube's rant video thread. Apparently three people were quite insulted by my video to the point that they had to resort to posting rebuttals that included comments that hinted or directly stated that I was to ignorant or stupid to know what I was doing. I expected my video to not be well received amongst some people but didn't expect users would get so wound up over it that they would resort to name calling. I ask anyone who in future decides to post on my YouTube thread to please not act immature and show a little class. Such posts don't make me look stupid but on the contrary only serves to make the posters who choose to post insulting remarks look ignorant. Insulting posts serve to do nothing except degrade the thread discussion and in the end the posts will only be deleted by me and a block will be put up. I don't waste my time responding to insulting posts that read like they were posted by 14 year old juveniles. Although I can probably guess who one of the culprits were I am not pointing any fingers at anyone in here. I'm simply stating insulting posts don't usually last very long on my YouTube channel and the people who post them in the end only become blocked

 


@ClieOS

 

I understand where you're coming from but my point is a lot of the audiophile DAP manufacturers don't take FW development seriously enough. although I think audio should always be the chief overriding concern in developing a player i also think when an mp3 player is involved the user experience should be a very close second. I'm not asking for smart playlists or anything I'm simply asking for a fluid OS and a few basic functions that have become commonplace features (playlists, gapless, search function) amongst most players that actually work. I don't think that's to much to ask.

post #41 of 1303
Quote:
Originally Posted by kova4a View Post
 

No it's not the case. In this case you have a company like Apple that gives millions to Samsung and they manufacture this for them. "Someone has something you need, you buy it"? Really? How do you buy it when you are a small company that's making like 10K units (at best) and have like $100k to spend - you  obviously can't go and buy the things you need that cost 5 million - you compromise. As I said the big companies don't manufacture for small businesses. Ibasso can't go to Samsung and say - "we want 5 thousand AMOLED screens". Samsung will laugh at them and say - we can make you 1 million screens for 2 million bucks and that's the smallest order we'll take. That's how things work. So ibasso or Fiio will go to a small company that makes small quantities and will manufacture the needed quantity but those screens will be of inferior quality. The same with chips and thus you hopefully get my point.

 

Once again it is exactly the case and you are trying to make it something else to prove your point. You stated competitors do not co operate. I show you a case of the biggest competitors in the largest growing market co operating and you some back with a dollars and cents argument that has no relevance here.

 

 You want to go out and build something you can already buy. Do it. Many others have and suffered for it.

 

You don't think competitors can co operate fine. I show you the example, you don't like it, thats fine too.

 

You think the consumer should settle for an inferior product, because the poor little company cannot afford to produce a functional one. Go buy it.

 

But please leave we who do not consider our purchases to be charity alone. There are consumers out there that actually do expect their products to work. They are in the majority and they will not as a rule be buying again from someone who delivers a sub standard product.

post #42 of 1303
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalFreak View Post
 

@ClieOS

 

I understand where you're coming from but my point is a lot of the audiophile DAP manufacturers don't take FW development seriously enough. although I think audio should always be the chief overriding concern in developing a player i also think when an mp3 player is involved the user experience should be a very close second. I'm not asking for smart playlists or anything I'm simply asking for a fluid OS and a few basic functions that have become commonplace features (playlists, gapless, search function) amongst most players that actually work. I don't think that's to much to ask.

 

In a way I agree with you too - at least up to this point, most Chinese DAP maker (well, most Chinese electronics maker too) doesn't dedicate enough into the software part of the R&D. that's the territory they have so far fail to conquer. But the situation is slowly changing, or should I say the Chinese has started to realize that their lack of software capability is dragging them down and there is an effort in the market that just begin to dedicate to the development on the software side of things. The good example will be XiaoMi - a company that started as a fully software based, Android firmware customizing company. Their original goal was just to develop an smooth custom ROM that will run much better than the stock Android on many cheap Chinese smartphone (which of course are not surprisingly supplied by those small SoC supplier I mentioned previously). Their MiUi is so successful that they end up getting funded by Google and begin to produce their own hardware (based on Samsung chip, not the cheap Chinese chip any more)  - this is actually a very rare case in the Chinese market, where a software company turns into a hardware company. In fact, it kind of turns into a case study for many Chinese economists. But XiaoMi's success does start a  new trend in China now for more and more start-up to dedicate their time and resource into software, and even joined by those that are traditionally hardware based companies like Oppo and Meizu. However, this is only just the beginning for the software industry in China and it will take a while before we'll see any effort that it will bring to other industry. As I have said previously, the lack of software capability is really on a national level. Compared to the hardware industry which is slowly getting over-saturated, the software industry is still very much in its infancy. This is quite an contrast to India, where software industry is at its peak while hardware is lacking well behind. That's why Microsoft has invested much more money in India than in China.

post #43 of 1303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redcarmoose View Post
 

There is no perfect DAP but the DAPs we all use here make us totally happy. It's just a little gizmo that lets us take our music everywhere. It's maybe just the American way to want things better and better. It has nothing about consumption, this is just a nice hobby.You don't have to bring Buddha into it.:D

 

Apparently they make nobody totally happy or even remotely happy, which is the whole point of this thread. Everybody needs to gripe about something now and then. 

post #44 of 1303

It has wetted our appetites for someone to make a proper DAP with good software -- which Sony just did (at least so it appears).

post #45 of 1303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Currawong View Post
 

It has wetted our appetites for someone to make a proper DAP with good software -- which Sony just did (at least so it appears).

 

The problem is they are playing the same proprietary crap that apple is. If they included a micro SD slot this would be a non-issue. They basically keep shooting themselves in the foot by doing this. They can't expect to get away with it either. Now apple can because it's apple lol.

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