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Comparisons of the Liquid Lightning and KGSSHV Solid State Stax Amplifiers - Page 7

post #91 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Currawong View Post
 

 

The BOM I have here has a parts total before case and transformer of approximately $1015 for a KGSSHV. It is certainly not impossible to go crazy with it though and use more expensive parts.

 

 

He sold a complete unit. Add a decent case, trafo and a mid-level pot. This is at least 1500 samolians. :smile:

(w/o considering labor)

Yup, cost can escalate to a lot more, or if one is thrifty - it can be built for ~$1000, parts cost.

Two years ago I built my KGSSHV for around $800.

Of course it will cost more these days due to escalating EOL parts cost and inflation.


Edited by livewire - 9/20/13 at 11:42pm
post #92 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by perrew View Post


To me wire with gain means that something measures linear and is correctly designed. Id not be interested in buying something that is designed to be less linear to work better with a specific phone.

 

I agree.
 
Is there consistent and complete characterization information available for these amps? Maybe THD+N plots under specific loading conditions. FR plots also under different loading conditions? Any IMD information? Crosstalk?
 
Given the number of builders for the KGSSHV (maybe even using different parts), are there any product performance variations?
 
Anything to back up "wire-with-gain" claims?

Edited by ultrabike - 9/20/13 at 11:55pm
post #93 of 210

It'd be interesting to have a full set of measurements of various 'stat amps and compare them with our impressions. I think it would be a bit presumptuous to assume anything about the intentions of an amp's design without comment from the manufacturer. Especially given, say, the B22's reputation as a "wire with gain" amp until people compared it to other amps intended to be "wire with gain" that sounded different.

post #94 of 210

I think Curra's comment on asking for objective evidence is perhaps the most level headed yet. So far there have been all sorts of subjective claims which I can dispute based on personal experiences but again merely subjective. This whole folly also brings Hitchen's Razor to mind What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence" 

post #95 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by gilency View Post
 

:eek: you dont care about Norah Jones????:D 

 

And no, the KGSSHV is not flat and boring as somebody mentioned before. It makes the 009 sing. Brittle? boring? criticizing "wire with gain" as wrong and stating distortion is better to reproduce the best transducer available? mmhhh...... 

 

What a boring argument. I never said distortion is better.. but uhh you are going to compare two amps solely based on their specs?

 

Also what is "wire with gain"? Do you actually believe the KGSSHV achieves this? Let's say I humor you and agree that the KGSSHV does not exist in this headphone system, that it melts away into the music.. has no impact whatsoever on the sound (signal?) from the source... wire with gain right? Therefore the KGSSHV is there purely to "reproduce" your source... and then interpreted via "the best tranducer available"....

 

Yeah, lets see you make that claim. Laughable really. How do you even know what your source is "supposed" to sound like? Or the 009?

 

Quote:
The LL is very expensive. Too expensive. Should I mention I sold a KGSSHV for 1500 USD?

For something I can not ever see the innards or design? 

 

No one is going to based a commercial product's pricing on the secondhand (DIY) market price. This comment makes no sense on many levels.

 

Also most KGSSHV's I've seen go for 2k and above. Which was about the price of the Headamp KGSS.

post #96 of 210

 And if Spritzer was right ?

 

The SR 009 is not a perfect headphone.

 

Tone a little thin, with a very slight lack of level in the low average and sometimes shiny side of its medium-high treble.

 

Well with a very accurate and linear amplifier type "straight wire with gain" (as BHSE or KGSSHV ?), these amps would only reproduce the alleged defects of 009.

 

In contrast with an amplifier outgoing of "straight wire with gain"  as it seems that this is the case of LL1 (and combo RKV-Wee as I know well) with the characteristic subjective to give more scope (importance) to the bass (roundness) and thickness at the timbre (tone) while mitigating the response in treble (roll-off), well it turns out that the addition of these two faults (one from the 009 and the other from the amp that does not belong to the category "straight wire with gain" ) gives in final not an listening more "bad" but on the contrary, sometimes, an global improved listening.

The "default"of amplifier improve (corrects) the headphone "default".

This resulting improvement is called synergy.


Edited by eric65 - 9/21/13 at 6:50am
post #97 of 210

You mean balancing the sound signature between the amp and the headphones? Pairing an amp that is opposite sounding to the headphones so it balances out the sound, bright headphone pair with something bit more euphonic or laid back sounding, laid back headphone pair with something more powerful, neutral or bright to balance out the darkness? Yes synergy.

post #98 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by eric65 View Post
 

 And if Spritzer was right ?

 

The SR 009 is not a perfect headphone.

 

Tone a little thin, with a very slight lack of level in the low average and sometimes shiny side of its medium-high treble.

 

Well with a very accurate and linear amplifier type "straight wire with gain" (as BHSE or KGSSHV ?), these amps would only reproduce the alleged defects of 009.

 

Pretty much sums up the 009 for me. Though it does excel in a lot of other areas, these are some of the more glaring issues.

post #99 of 210

This "wire-with-gain" stuff is a road which leads down to nowhere.

 

I've heard the KGSS, KGSSHV, BHSE, T2DIY. Despite having a house sound, they do all sound different. The better sounding amps of the bunch, the BHSE and particularly the T2DIY, have a tiny hint of tube sound. That's an error of commission. But they are better than the others because they commit less errors of omission. These amps also have a slightly different tonal balance, with the BHSE being the brightest of the lot, depending on tube.

 

There is something to be said with the famed BHSE and the SR007 combination. It's a great synergistic combination. The SR007 is a notably laid back sounding headphone (which measurements confirm), but does that imply the BHSE does not exhibit sufficient "wire-with-gain" properties and we should not buy it? Buck no!

 

Measurements will prove nothing about wire-with-gain. The Objective2 amp despite its excellent measurements is a slightly veiled sounding amp with a strident treble quality. I've done so many different measurements with different amps that I know that two amps which sound different will still measure the same in frequency response, and sometimes amps which measure worse in the distortion department will sound more clear, detailed, and dynamic. (Everyone seems to cite Nelson Pass, well duh.) Heck, just look at decent DACs: almost nothing about their sound can be discerned from looking at their measurements. They all measure very well, very close to each other, yet they can sound very different.

 

The point being that there is no absolute reference for what is correct or what is not. And I can promise you measurements will show a flat 20-20kHz. But yeah, as an aside, I do subjectively feel that the KGSSHV is very neutral sounding which has a tonal balance which works well for both the SR007 and SR009. Compared to the better amps, it does commit errors of omission though. Oh wait, I guess that means it isn't "wire-with-gain" anymore.

 

Sorry, but one cannot pick and choose and decide that amps from one designer is "wire-with-gain" in an absolute sense and those of others are not. It's way too simplistic of an approach; and it just doesn't work that way.


Edited by purrin - 9/21/13 at 8:24am
post #100 of 210

wire-with-gain :D

post #101 of 210
So Purrin which is the most linear(wire-with-gain) stat amp youve listened to(irrespective of phone i.e. any or all phones)?
post #102 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by purrin View Post
 

This "wire-with-gain" stuff is a road which leads down to nowhere.

 

I've heard the KGSS, KGSSHV, BHSE, T2DIY. Despite having a house sound, they do all sound different. The better sounding amps of the bunch, the BHSE and particularly the T2DIY, have a tiny hint of tube sound. That's an error of commission. But they are better than the others because they commit less errors of omission. These amps also have a slightly different tonal balance, with the BHSE being the brightest of the lot, depending on tube.

 

There is something to be said with the famed BHSE and the SR007 combination. It's a great synergistic combination. The SR007 is a notably laid back sounding headphone (which measurements confirm), but does that imply the BHSE does not exhibit sufficient "wire-with-gain" properties and we should not buy it? Buck no!

 

Measurements will prove nothing about wire-with-gain. The Objective2 amp despite its excellent measurements is a slightly veiled sounding amp with a strident treble quality. I've done so many different measurements with different amps that I know that two amps which sound different will still measure the same in frequency response, and sometimes amps which measure worse in the distortion department will sound more clear, detailed, and dynamic. (Everyone seems to cite Nelson Pass, well duh.) Heck, just look at decent DACs: almost nothing about their sound can be discerned from looking at their measurements. They all measure very well, very close to each other, yet they can sound very different.

 

The point being that there is no absolute reference for what is correct or what is not. And I can promise you measurements will show a flat 20-20kHz. But yeah, as an aside, I do subjectively feel that the KGSSHV is very neutral sounding which has a tonal balance which works well for both the SR007 and SR009. Compared to the better amps, it does commit errors of omission though. Oh wait, I guess that means it isn't "wire-with-gain" anymore.

 

Sorry, but one cannot pick and choose and decide that amps from one designer is "wire-with-gain" in an absolute sense and those of others are not. It's way too simplistic of an approach; and it just doesn't work that way.

 

 

Perfectly said. But people will still parrot prevalent regurgitated 'facts' around here...

 

-Daniel

post #103 of 210

for me, wire with gain is simply one type of sound signature, the sound of absolutely nothingness and perfect neutrality. this imo means that nothing is wrong with an amp having colorations or a unique sound signature,  however, its not an excuse for having distortion and poor performance, or being overpriced.

post #104 of 210

I think 'wire with a gain' is more technical than that. In fact, true wire with a gain is probably not open to subjective interpretation-but it is here because it hasn't truly been achieved.

 

-Daniel

post #105 of 210

Why is that everyone seems to have their panties all up in a bunch with the "wire with gain" term.  It looks like some people are taking it a little to seriously.  It's just a coined slogan that a certain builder is using for their products.  A sales pitch so to speak.  Was it meant to be taken "literally"?  Who cares?  It's just a term.  

 

Seems like it's more negative energy being used from people continuously saying:  Aww, that's not true - there's no such thing.  blah blah blah.  So what?  Again, it's just a slogan.   IMO not to be taken literally - I know I never did.

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