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Sony NWZ-ZX1 - 35th Walkman Anniversary model - Page 7

post #91 of 6526
Quote:
Originally Posted by Q Mass View Post

Card slots have the advantage that they allow each individual owner to make their own choice between low price/capacity and higher price/capacity :-)

 

I think the consumers have spoken. I don't know any Average Jane or Joe - and I travel often - who has a dedicated audio device that takes SD cards. It's a niche market. People on head-fi who want something like this are the exception. Most people use their phone for things like music (see: iPhone) as well as their camera. Dedicated device buyers are become more and more of a dying breed - moreso for music, but it's hurting cameras, too. The reason even folks who offered larger devices - such as Creative - have stopped is because the market is just too small. They're premium devices and priced as such. Companies are designed to make money, and high capacity devices and/or ones that take SD cards are not the winners for many. Smaller companies can offer such devices because by definition, they can appeal to a lesser amount of people and still make some money.


Edited by FenderP - 9/13/13 at 11:57am
post #92 of 6526
Quote:
Originally Posted by FenderP View Post
 

 

I think the consumers have spoken. I don't know any Average Jane or Joe - and I travel often - who has a dedicated audio device that takes SD cards. It's a niche market. People on head-fi who want something like this are the exception. Most people use their phone for things like music (see: iPhone) as well as their camera. Dedicated device buyers are become more and more of a dying breed - moreso for music, but it's hurting cameras, too. The reason even folks who offered larger devices - such as Creative - have stopped is because the market is just too small. They're premium devices and priced as such. Companies are designed to make money, and high capacity devices and/or ones that take SD cards are not the winners for many. Smaller companies can offer such devices because by definition, they can appeal to a lesser amount of people and still make some money.

Sansa clip plus says hello to the above.  Cheap to the point of being disposable, sd expandable, decent sound what's not to like? 

post #93 of 6526
Indeed, the market is certainly more niche than the majority of folks who, as you say, listen to music via cellphone.
But by that rationale any DAP is a niche product, and will achieve greater success by appealing to a greater number of potential purchasers within that niche.

Neither camp in this debate is likely to successfully convert the other to their way of thinking, but my argument is that Sony could please both the 'dont especially need a card slot' crowd, and the 'need a card slot' crowd by providing one.
Surely the inclusion of a slot wouldn't put anyone off?

BTW, what makes you so certain that other head-fier's that want this sort of expandability are in the minority?
Surely lots of the devices owned by members have card slots?
post #94 of 6526
Quote:
Originally Posted by FenderP View Post
 

 

I think the consumers have spoken. I don't know any Average Jane or Joe - and I travel often - who has a dedicated audio device that takes SD cards. It's a niche market.

 

 

Yeah, whatever.

 

By that logic, just because sheeple around the globe buy iPhone's with no expansion, one would expect that the same would be true for non Apple fanbois...only that isn't the case....the biggest-selling Android phone (SG2, SG3, SG4) has had expandable memory for several years and is wildly successful with non-sheeple / non fanbois, who appreciate the benefits of expandability and (relatively) open devices.

 

It is EXTREMELY easy for manufacturers to include card slots on their devices. EXTREMELY easy.

 

The primary reason why the likes of Sony and Apple refuse to incorporate memory expansion slots on their pocket devices, above all else, is sheer corporate selfishness/greed. Security considerations are not the reason, since there are plenty of other ways to corrupt a device with rogue code.

 

A high-res DAP deserves high capacity. That's not niche, it's appropriate. High-res files take significantly more space, and why should a customer who is willing to pay a hefty sum for a high-end DAP be expected to limit their choice of music, on-the-go? If a manufacturer is willing to include high capacity as standard, and at reasonable cost, then OK, but Sony and Apple most certainly do not cover both those bases, because they want you either to unfairly pay through the nose for larger capacities, or upgrade when the next larger capacity device becomes available, 12-24 months down the line.

 

Anyway, I'm bored of debating this issue. The days of Apple and Sony's disrespectful attitude towards customers are limited. The sheeple/fanbois who are willing to pay to be handcuffed, just so long as the device is glitzy or fashionable, will not drive the market indefinitely, in an increasingly-competitive marketplace:

 

1) It used to be that small independent vendors couldn't possibly compete with the big boys (Matsu$h1ta, Sony, Toshiba, Apple, etc.) but the times, they are a changing! Just wait and see. The next 5 years or so will see huge shifts in the way firms operate, because those that don't truly serve the feature demands of their customers will begin to fall by the wayside.

 

2) As technology evolves, customers around the world become more and more tech-savvy, and thus more aware of when they are being screwed / denied legitimate features.

 

3) Sony and Apple are no longer distinguishing themselves from their competitors, in terms of technological innovation, to the same extent that they used to. This, in itself, will lead to their lofty positions falling more into line with humbler independent companies snapping at their heels.

 

 

 

I'll keep an eye on this upcoming Sony DAP, and if it turns out to be the high-end DAP Sony are capable of making, whilst not having certain features selfishly omitted, I might just buy one. My aging D-777s are wonderful PCDPs that pushed the boundaries of what was possible, without deliberately omitting features, and I'd genuinely love to see a return to that kind of form for Sony; they were products Sony could be proud of. Will they do that or will they choose the selfish corporate greed route, a la Apple? ...I wish I could be more optimistic that they'll prioritize customer features over corporate greed...

 

                                                            :popcorn:


Edited by Mython - 9/13/13 at 12:51pm
post #95 of 6526
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mython View Post
 

 

 

Yeah, whatever.

 

By that logic, just because sheeple around the globe buy iPhone's with no expansion, one would expect that the same would be true for non Apple fanbois...only that isn't the case....the biggest-selling Android phone (SG2, SG3, SG4) has had expandable memory for several years and is wildly successful with non-sheeple / non fanbois, who appreciate the benefits of expandability and (relatively) open devices.

 

It is EXTREMELY easy for manufacturers to include card slots on their devices. EXTREMELY easy.

 

The primary reason why the likes of Sony and Apple refuse to incorporate memory expansion slots on their pocket devices, above all else, is sheer corporate selfishness/greed. Security considerations are not the reason, since there are plenty of other ways to corrupt a device with rogue code.

 

A high-res DAP deserves high capacity. That's not niche, it's appropriate. High-res files take significantly more space, and why should a customer who is willing to pay a hefty sum for a high-end DAP be expected to limit their choice of music, on-the-go? If a manufacturer is willing to include high capacity as standard, and at reasonable cost, then OK, but Sony and Apple most certainly do not cover both those bases, because they want you either to unfairly pay through the nose for larger capacities, or upgrade when the next larger capacity device becomes available, 12-24 months down the line.

 

Anyway, I'm bored of debating this issue. The days of Apple and Sony's disrespectful attitude towards customers are limited. The sheeple/fanbois who are willing to pay to be handcuffed, just so long as the device is glitzy or fashionable, will not drive the market indefinitely, in an increasingly-competitive marketplace:

 

1) It used to be that small independent vendors couldn't possibly compete with the big boys (Matsu$h1ta, Sony, Toshiba, Apple, etc.) but the times, they are a changing! Just wait and see. The next 5 years or so will see huge shifts in the way firms operate, because those that don't truly serve the feature demands of their customers will begin to fall by the wayside.

 

2) As technology evolves, customers around the world become more and more tech-savvy, and thus more aware of when they are being screwed / denied legitimate features.

 

3) Sony and Apple are no longer distinguishing themselves from their competitors, in terms of technological innovation, to the same extent that they used to. This, in itself, will lead to their lofty positions falling more into line with humbler independent companies snapping at their heels.

 

 

 

I'll keep an eye on this upcoming Sony DAP, and if it turns out to be the high-end DAP Sony are capable of making, whilst not having certain features selfishly omitted, I might just buy one. My aging D-777s are wonderful PCDPs that pushed the boundaries of what was possible, without deliberately omitting features, and I'd genuinely love to see a return to that kind of form for Sony; they were products Sony could be proud of. Will they do that or will they choose the selfish corporate greed route, a la Apple? ...I wish I could be more optimistic that they'll prioritize customer features over corporate greed...

 

                                                            :popcorn:

 

Easy doesn't necessarily mean it's the right thing to do for them. Why do you even care this much? It's a friggin' SD card. It's not life and death. Buy what you want. Sony is selfish and deliberately omitting features? Oh that's rich. I think they had a meeting just today to discuss you and said, "You know what? F Mython! No SD card slot for him!" Do you realize how irrational you sound?

 

Toshiba, JVC/Kenwood, and Panasonic (i.e. Matshu$h1ta) are basically out of this market. Sony is hanging on mainly because of their Walkman lineage, but they're a bit player. Apple? Well, even if they kill the iPod in all forms they still have tablets and the iPhone. Samsung is a bit player who dabbles here, too, but if their DAP line went away, not many would notice.

 

I'm so tired of the corporation = bad mentality. Sony (nor Apple, who I by and large dislike including their products) are not evil. The fact they've been able to even turn around after a lot of the missteps they've had (which included innovating products such as the X-EL1 TV) is pretty amazing. At the end of the day corporations are about making money. Why do you think even traditinoal stalwarts like Sony and Panasonic are struggling in the TV market? Other manufacturers are eating  their lunch and there's not much profit left. The portable audio market is in even worse shape. I'm just happy that some manufacturers - including Sony and Apple - are still making dedicated audio devices. I won't be surprised when DAPs are no longer made.

 

Sony not proud of their products? OK. Whatever. Thanks for the laugh.

 

People feel so entitled today. Music should be free, every feature should be crammed in and cost not much, etc. That's not the way the world works - maybe you're just not aware. I think you need to look up definitions of rights and privileges. Things like an SD card slot are a want, which is neither a right or privilege, let alone a need. You sound like Veruca Salt (not the band, a Willy Wonka character): *I* want an Oompa Loompa! I want you to get me an Oompa Loompa right away!

 

By no means am I an apologist for any company, let alone Sony, but attitudes like yours really chafe me.

 

EDIT: And I never said hi-rez doesn't need high capacity. It absoutely does. We'll wait and see if this new Sony flagship has more than 64GB of memory. We will know soon enough. This is essentially the same argument when early on if you had, say, an 8GB player but you wanted lossless, it was a problem. Like I've said, it's all abou tradeoffs. When I used a PCDP, I had to choose which discs to bring with me (even on a long journey) and I was stuck with them until I got home or bought something new on the trip. None of this is a new problem. There will always be large files, formats, etc. that limit how much crap we can store or take with us.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Q Mass View Post

Indeed, the market is certainly more niche than the majority of folks who, as you say, listen to music via cellphone.
But by that rationale any DAP is a niche product, and will achieve greater success by appealing to a greater number of potential purchasers within that niche.

Neither camp in this debate is likely to successfully convert the other to their way of thinking, but my argument is that Sony could please both the 'dont especially need a card slot' crowd, and the 'need a card slot' crowd by providing one.
Surely the inclusion of a slot wouldn't put anyone off?

BTW, what makes you so certain that other head-fier's that want this sort of expandability are in the minority?
Surely lots of the devices owned by members have card slots?

 

A DAP these days is niche - I think we're in agreement there. And I'm not trying to convert anyone, but people are acting as if it's their right and manufacturers MUST do this or else. People need to vote with their money and buy the product that suits them best. I do that. Not sure why people are so up in arms about something as silly and a major first world problem as to whether a player has an SD (or microSD) card slot. I'm sure there are just as many devices by people here who have HDD, SD, SSD, whatever. Some may own all kinds! But in essence, head-fi is not indicatve of the market as a whole and companies like Sony and Apple may make some nods to folks like us, but they're certainly not catering to us - hence minor niche (and expensive) players like the AK120.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidcotton View Post
 

Sansa clip plus says hello to the above.  Cheap to the point of being disposable, sd expandable, decent sound what's not to like?

 

For starters, not gapless (and stuff like Rockbox doesn't count since it's not something most people would do). Again, I know a lot of people - some of whom are audio folks - none have one or even aspire to own one.


Edited by FenderP - 9/13/13 at 3:12pm
post #96 of 6526
I have the Tera Player and I am very happy with it and the sound improved over the last 60+hours.But I will still keep my eyes on this Sony walkman.
24/192 wav/flac player with great battery life and over 128gb internal memory will be amazing.
Let's hope it sounds better then AK120 and is cheaper also.
post #97 of 6526
Quote:

Originally Posted by FenderP View Post

 

Do you realize how irrational you sound?

 

 

I'm sorry you consider it 'irrational' of me to resent Sony and Apple for refusing to allow memory expansion, but I don't consider it irrational at all.

 

 

Each to their own.

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FenderP View Post
 

 

 

 

I'm so tired of the corporation = bad mentality. Sony (nor Apple, who I by and large dislike including their products) are not evil.

 

 

I never said 'corporations are bad', and I never said Apple or Sony are 'evil'.

 

 

I simply said Sony and Apple's determination to withhold legitimate expansion are (IMO) selfishly-motivated.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FenderP View Post
 

I won't be surprised when DAPs are no longer made.

 

 

On that, we can agree, to some extent, given the propensity for technology convergence these days, although I noted with interest the remarks of a futurologist last Sunday, on British television, who said that the trend in the next couple of years will now be one of divergence, rather than convergence.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FenderP View Post
 

 

People feel so entitled today. Music should be free, every feature should be crammed in and cost not much, etc. That's not the way the world works - maybe you're just not aware. I think you need to look up definitions of rights and privileges. Things like an SD card slot are a want, which is neither a right or privilege, let alone a need. You sound like Veruca Salt (not the band, a Willy Wonka character): *I* want an Oompa Loompa! I want you to get me an Oompa Loompa right away!

 

 

 

I didn't demand an SD expansion slot (or free music - and it was disingenuous of you to wedge that in to the conversation as it has no place here).

 

I remarked that if Sony withhold it then I won't be interested in the DAP, and I fully anticipate that they will lose customers each time they withhold such a basic (and entirely legitimate) feature from their high-end DAPs.

 

 

Furthermore, I believe it is every person's right to express their opinion about a company's attitude towards its customers. The more people do that (as the internet is now allowing people to do), the more companies will feel compelled to provide their customers with features they desire. That's no bad thing, even though a company obviously can't satisfy everyone.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FenderP View Post
 

When I used a PCDP, I had to choose which discs to bring with me (even on a long journey) and I was stuck with them until I got home or bought something new on the trip. None of this is a new problem. There will always be large files, formats, etc. that limit how much crap we can store or take with us.

 

I find it curious that you cannot see the irony in what you said above. The PCDP allowed you to swap CDs to your heart's content. You could carry as many or as few CDs as you personally wished. Is that so different to someone like me wishing to carry as many SD cards as I wish, and swap them into a DAP when I wish to change the music?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FenderP View Post
a major first world problem as to whether a player has an SD (or microSD) card slot.

 

Yes, of course it is a 'first world problem'. I don't dispute that at all, but everything is relative, and we're mostly discussing first world hardware here on Head-fi, are we not?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FenderP View Post

 

A DAP these days is niche - I think we're in agreement there.

 

Ermmm.... I'm on the fence about that one - they may be on the decline, given the explosion of smartphones, but I think there's still quite a healthy global market for DAPs.

 

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately, I get the sense that you think I'm having a go at you, personally, but I'm not. I'm just engaging in discussion. Just because Head-fiers don't always agree with what each other says, does not necessarily mean one is being personal.

 

Peace!   :wink:

post #98 of 6526
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mython View Post
 

 

 

Yeah, whatever.

 

By that logic, just because sheeple around the globe buy iPhone's with no expansion, one would expect that the same would be true for non Apple fanbois...only that isn't the case....the biggest-selling Android phone (SG2, SG3, SG4) has had expandable memory for several years and is wildly successful with non-sheeple / non fanbois, who appreciate the benefits of expandability and (relatively) open devices.

 

It is EXTREMELY easy for manufacturers to include card slots on their devices. EXTREMELY easy.

 

The primary reason why the likes of Sony and Apple refuse to incorporate memory expansion slots on their pocket devices, above all else, is sheer corporate selfishness/greed. Security considerations are not the reason, since there are plenty of other ways to corrupt a device with rogue code.

 

A high-res DAP deserves high capacity. That's not niche, it's appropriate. High-res files take significantly more space, and why should a customer who is willing to pay a hefty sum for a high-end DAP be expected to limit their choice of music, on-the-go? If a manufacturer is willing to include high capacity as standard, and at reasonable cost, then OK, but Sony and Apple most certainly do not cover both those bases, because they want you either to unfairly pay through the nose for larger capacities, or upgrade when the next larger capacity device becomes available, 12-24 months down the line.

 

Anyway, I'm bored of debating this issue. The days of Apple and Sony's disrespectful attitude towards customers are limited. The sheeple/fanbois who are willing to pay to be handcuffed, just so long as the device is glitzy or fashionable, will not drive the market indefinitely, in an increasingly-competitive marketplace:

 

1) It used to be that small independent vendors couldn't possibly compete with the big boys (Matsu$h1ta, Sony, Toshiba, Apple, etc.) but the times, they are a changing! Just wait and see. The next 5 years or so will see huge shifts in the way firms operate, because those that don't truly serve the feature demands of their customers will begin to fall by the wayside.

 

2) As technology evolves, customers around the world become more and more tech-savvy, and thus more aware of when they are being screwed / denied legitimate features.

 

3) Sony and Apple are no longer distinguishing themselves from their competitors, in terms of technological innovation, to the same extent that they used to. This, in itself, will lead to their lofty positions falling more into line with humbler independent companies snapping at their heels.

 

 

 

I'll keep an eye on this upcoming Sony DAP, and if it turns out to be the high-end DAP Sony are capable of making, whilst not having certain features selfishly omitted, I might just buy one. My aging D-777s are wonderful PCDPs that pushed the boundaries of what was possible, without deliberately omitting features, and I'd genuinely love to see a return to that kind of form for Sony; they were products Sony could be proud of. Will they do that or will they choose the selfish corporate greed route, a la Apple? ...I wish I could be more optimistic that they'll prioritize customer features over corporate greed...

 

                                                            :popcorn:

 

+1

Tell 'em... Tell it like it is.

post #99 of 6526

that right, A golden age of a high-end portable audio listening indeed!  Saving up for this now! thanks 

24.gif

post #100 of 6526

Ironically, given the above discussion between FenderP & I, about convergence/divergence/capacity/expansion, I've just noticed some relevant remarks in a preview of LG's forthcoming 24-192 playback-capable G2 smartphone (linked on the What Hi-fi NWZ-ZX1 article):

 

http://www.whathifi.com/blog/hands-on-lg-g2-review

 

 

 

I also note that on the link Alpha10 provided at the start of this thread (http://www.phileweb.com/sp/news/d-av/201309/05/33641.html), there are some intriguing outlines on the rear of the NWZ-ZX1 prototype casework, which might imply a removable hatch, perhaps exposing a replaceable battery (and, shock-horror, maybe, just maybe a hidden SD card slot, but I'm still less than optimistic about the latter). Or it could be no hatch at all, and just a stylistic indentation in the casework:

 

 

That Walkman logo looks interesting, too. It could just be styling, but I'm wondering if that perforated metal grill look might suggest a miniature speaker there?


Edited by Mython - 9/13/13 at 6:38pm
post #101 of 6526

It might be instructive to us all to conduct a poll.

Can anyone add one to a thread?

Or must it be done by a mod?

 

I'm thinking something real simple like:

 

Should the ZX1 have expandable memory?

 

YES

 

NO

 

DON'T CARE

 

DON'T CARE AS LONG AS THE BUILT IN MEMORY IS LARGE ENOUGH

 

 

I'd certainly be interested to find out if those who'd like a card slot are in the minority as has been suggested.

 

Anyone know how to do this?

post #102 of 6526
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mython View Post
 

Ironically, given the above discussion between FenderP & I, about convergence/divergence/capacity/expansion, I've just noticed some relevant remarks in a preview of LG's forthcoming 24-192 playback-capable G2 smartphone (linked on the What Hi-fi NWZ-ZX1 article):

 

http://www.whathifi.com/blog/hands-on-lg-g2-review

 

 

 

I also note that on the link Alpha10 provided at the start of this thread (http://www.phileweb.com/sp/news/d-av/201309/05/33641.html), there are some intriguing outlines on the rear of the NWZ-ZX1 prototype casework, which might imply a removable hatch, perhaps exposing a replaceable battery (and, shock-horror, maybe, just maybe a hidden SD card slot, but I'm still less than optimistic about the latter). Or it could be no hatch at all, and just a stylistic indentation in the casework:

 

 

That Walkman logo looks interesting, too. It could just be styling, but I'm wondering if that perforated metal grill look might suggest a miniature speaker there?

Here's hoping it is more than just styling, though some have alluded to it being the NFC (personally found that one strange but we're all guessing here I suppose)

post #103 of 6526
Quote:
Originally Posted by FenderP View Post
 

 

It's not rare if you can get it everywhere and easily. The iPod Touch is ubiquitous. You have no point here. Even if it was just Sony in Japan and Apple in the rest of the world, point is the rest of the world HAS an option. Most people wind up buying 16 and 32GB devices because for the masses that is MORE than enough. People who need more - and I put myself in that category - are the exception, NOT the rule. You don't think manufacturers came up with these types of numbers (i.e. 16/32) "just because", do you? The business side of things is that there is not a massive demand for high capacity players in general regardless of the type of storage.

 

 

Firstly I'm not here to, as you put it, have a  "mine is bigger than yours contest". I simply made the comment implied or not that a person would have a hard time in finding a player with 64GB to their liking in a high quality PMP. Maybe I didn't make my point clearly for you here.

I am well aware that few people require or need a PMP with high capacity (myself excluded) and therefore the range would be limiting. This is a point that's in my favour not yours. You have brought up old devices no longer available and phones/tablets which do not count as we here are discussing a high end audiophile model. If you believe "I'm out of touch" fine, although I believe that anyone looking to get a quality PMP(with choice) with 64GB would face a challenge.

Enough said on the topic.


Edited by Cecala - 9/16/13 at 5:33am
post #104 of 6526

Sony very recently announced a big push into high res downloads ( http://www.stereophile.com/content/sony-push-hi-rez-downloads ).  24 bit FLAC, or even DSD anyone?  Now that would be a game changer.

 

Let's hope at least they don't hobble it with some awful user interface.  We are long overdue a quality player which competes with the iPod for usability.  That wouldn't be a game changer, it'd be a minor miracle.

 

All of this would be too much to hope for, but fingers crossed ....

 

Bob

post #105 of 6526
Quote:
Originally Posted by 24bitbob View Post
 

Sony very recently announced a big push into high res downloads ( http://www.stereophile.com/content/sony-push-hi-rez-downloads ).  24 bit FLAC, or even DSD anyone?  Now that would be a game changer.

 

Let's hope at least they don't hobble it with some awful user interface.  We are long overdue a quality player which competes with the iPod for usability.  That wouldn't be a game changer, it'd be a minor miracle.

 

All of this would be too much to hope for, but fingers crossed ....

 

Bob

 

I hope they succeed, however, I'm getting pretty tired with different file formats.  This is actually worst than SACD vs. DVD-A era.  Personally, I love DSD/SACD but I rather go with Hi-Rez PCMs given that I have more songs available in that format.  $25 for DSD album is great, but it can get quite expensive in a hurry.  I'll stick with what I have in Hi-rez PCMs.  


Edited by purk - 9/14/13 at 12:32am
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