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Sony NWZ-ZX1 - 35th Walkman Anniversary model - Page 51

post #751 of 6173
Very well said AnakChan and I believe that's why Japan has so many products exclusive to their market, be it electronics, cars, etc. Those who appreciate the product will certainly buy it. Not everyone wants to whack on a set of high impedance headphones or walk around town with a big set of drivers over their ears or to carry a whole stack of gizmos in search of the sound which is perfect to the individual. Each to their own at the end of the day and none of which are an issue or a problem but rather more a matter of personal preference.

I travelled across the skies with my F807 for the first time with my Shure SCL4 earphones and I'm only thinking of changing it to a ZX1 for the 128GB storage when I'm overseas for several months at a time. Because even we consumers like a good sound without getting excessive on the gear. I still like the idea of walking through customs carrying as little as possible on board with me as long as I don't sacrifice my sound.
Edited by Artstar - 10/21/13 at 4:16am
post #752 of 6173
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnakChan View Post


I think your underestimate the consumers here in Japan. You may be surprised. Maybe Sony should make it an exclusive Japan-only to avoid all this noise.

I also must say, outside of the business aspect, that I think it's rather selfish with the idea of keeping the so-called audiophile level products solely for the audiophile market & ignoring the consumer market. I actually welcome the concept of bringing higher level quality music & methods of delivery (through DAPs or headphones) to the general consumer. Over time, when the general consumer gets more educated, it merely raises the bar of the audiophile standard.

Clearly we don't see eye to eye about this product & that's fine but I don't think it deserves the criticism it's received so far. I would have -other- issues to pick on this DAP but "poor power delivery compared to another brand that can at 3x cheaper" isn't one of them.

 

I don't doubt that Japanese people, audiophile or not will be all over the ZX1. And I didn't mean marketing the product only to audiophiles, I meant for Sony to also make audiophiles happy along with the consumer crowd. I'm interested to know what issues you concerned about with the ZX1? 

I guess over all I'm happy with how the ZX1 is shaping up, the only problem I had was the power bit, but its not going to stop me getting one, it is still probably the most refined high end DAP around, and I'm actually a Sony Fanboy :D

post #753 of 6173
Guys,seriously!
If any of us is paying so much money for a player we shouldnt worry about the big hungry cans.
Surely we all have good portable or not amps to drive those.
The point of a player like this is the convenience+sound factor,portability being priority here.
Get fantastic iem like the 334's and you dont ever need anything else when ur out and about.
Get home,plug it wherever,however u want,including streaming to ur hifi.
post #754 of 6173
Quote:
Originally Posted by uelover View Post


What we need is a good sounding portable (not transportable) DAP that also boost of a great UI. Sony is best positioned to realize this alongside Apple but it seems that Sony is not doing it with the ZX1.

 

Awfully big conclusion to draw about something you haven't even heard. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pietcux View Post
 

What makes you so sure that it cannot drive all of your IEMs to your fullest satisfaction, is the output signal power so weak compared to other daps? I am in Europe, I need to deal with kinda castrated headphone out signals. And honestly my Ipod Classic and my Sony NWZ-845 can play the EX-1000 and both my Ultrasone Signatures quite well. If I want more I amplify them with my Meier Audio Stepdance anyways. Maybe that will be no longer needed from the NWZ-ZX1 because of the class D amp.

 

No, it's not weak, actually. My Clip+ (right around the same output power) drives everything I have used with them, including my AKG's, which despite their published specs, are much harder to drive than anything else I own (but shouldn't be, again, if you're looking at specs). So despite what you're reading all up in this thread, the amount of power supplied is going to drive the majority of headphones you pair with it. I am much more worried about its output impedance (something that should be extremely low if this is a properly implemented class D, but we'll see.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by T.R.A.N.C.E. View Post
 

Fiio X3 looks at the new Sony ZX1, and says Pfft, you only got 15mW? I have 500mW homie. Sony ZX1 looks back and says, your DAC chip is how old now? I have S-Master, biatch.

 

I really wish ZX1 had more power, X3 makes the ZX1 look like a baby. Now compared to the HM-901 and DX100, which both just over twice the power of the X3, then the ZX1 really starts to look silly.

 

Sony could have done a lot better, I really do hope that the ZX1 uses super fairy magic miracle technology to turn 15mW into 500.

 

Again, it's got plenty of juice, so long as it's a decent amp. I don't need DX100 level of power, just to sit at a lower volume level. How many headphones do you have that a Clip+ can't power? I will say again, I have exactly 0 pair. Do you walk around with HE-6's on your head?

 

Sometimes this forum is hilarious. One person in this thread has actually heard the device, and only briefly. But we're already writing the narrative. 

post #755 of 6173
I for one feel that the previous discussions are useful for people like me who has zero experience with sony dap to understand this product a bit better....and especially I have not much technical knowledge...

In essence,this is an audiophile level ipod touch which could be useful... If they could allow celluar network it will be a very handy gadget especially when my cellphone does go out of battery quickly from internet browsing
post #756 of 6173
Quote:
Originally Posted by pietcux View Post
 

What makes you so sure that it cannot drive all of your IEMs to your fullest satisfaction, is the output signal power so weak compared to other daps?

 

Yes, it is weak compared to many other DAPs.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pietcux View Post
 

I am in Europe, I need to deal with kinda castrated headphone out signals.

 

I'm in Europe, and the volume cap annoys me, too. Brussels should not be forcing volume caps on consumer devices. I understand their intentions to protect consumers' hearing, but a default (and user-removable) software setting would suffice, rather than treating consumers like juveniles incapable of choosing their own listening levels. One can still buy a car in Europe that will go more than double the speed limit, and that's an infinitely more dangerous proposition than a loud DAP.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pietcux View Post
 

.... honestly my Ipod Classic and my Sony NWZ-845 can play the EX-1000 and both my Ultrasone Signatures quite well. If I want more I amplify them with my Meier Audio Stepdance anyways.

 

Yes, but both of those are single dynamic drivers.

 

They are entirely different to the reactive low-impedance loads often presented by multi-BA CIEMs. Whilst I acknowledge that the mass-market ventures relatively rarely into BA territory, BA IEMs are becoming increasingly common, as demonstrated by Sony themselves, and there is Etymotic, Klipsch, UE Triple-fi 10, Shure etc.  And the NW-ZX1 is not mass-market. It's seeking to straddle the gap between mass-market and audiophile, and anyone willing to drop 700 bucks on a DAP, and to feed it with Hi-Rez audio files, has a substantially above-average likelihood of exploring above-average IEM / CIEM offerings, many of which are increasingly based upon balanced armature designs.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnakChan View Post
 

 

But ever considered the possibly Sony isn't targeting for customers like yourselves who are seeking for more power?? There are those options by other makers that you've already mentioned. If anything, the ZX1 (and all other Sony walkmans) were made to push for their own current earphones/headphones instead - and they not high impedance h/e-phones.

 

Why is it that on Head-fi, so many members (even experienced ones like yourself) fail, time & again, to understand that high current delivery is not only required for high-impedance cans?

 

Multi-BA CIEMs quite often have low impedance, with notable dips, at certain frequencies, to very low impedance. This places greater demand upon current delivery.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artstar View Post

Not everyone wants to whack on a set of high impedance headphones or walk around town with a big set of drivers over their ears or to carry a whole stack of gizmos in search of the sound which is perfect to the individual.

 

See above.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnakChan View Post


I think your underestimate the consumers here in Japan.

 

Really? I wonder who here is really the one underestimating consumers in Japan. Fitear (as just one example) is extremely popular in Japan. Their products are high-end and whilst I don't claim to know the exact impedance curves of their CIEMs, they are multi-BA designs, so there is a fair chance that they may be wired such that they present a relatively low impedance load to an amp stage.

 

No one is saying that 15mw cannot drive a CIEM to a reasonable volume. But volume isn't the issue.

 

The issue is being able to deliver sufficient current to accomplish appropriate excursion at all frequencies, even those that coincide with scarily low impedance.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnakChan View Post


I also must say, outside of the business aspect, that I think it's rather selfish with the idea of keeping the so-called audiophile level products solely for the audiophile market & ignoring the consumer market.

 

What?

 

Please tell me what is selfish about expecting decent power output? :confused:

 

Decent power output in no way excludes mass-market consumers. It caters for all consumers, regardless of what IEMs/CIEMs they prefer.

 

My old D-777 discmans have moderate but adequate current delivery, and no consumer ever complained about them having too much. They drive UM's Miracle rather well, which some DAPs fail miserably with.

 


Edited by Mython - 10/21/13 at 5:49am
post #757 of 6173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mython View Post
 

Multi-BA CIEMs quite often have low impedance, with notable dips, at certain frequencies, to very low impedance. This places greater demand upon current delivery.

 

 

The issue is being able to deliver sufficient current to accomplish appropriate excursion at all frequencies, even those that coincide with scarily low impedance.

 

 

 

And 15mW per channel is enough to do that, so long as output impedance is low. 

post #758 of 6173
Quote:
Originally Posted by reginalb View Post
 

 

 

No, it's not weak, actually. My Clip+ (right around the same output power) drives everything I have used with them, including my AKG's, which despite their published specs, are much harder to drive than anything else I own (but shouldn't be, again, if you're looking at specs). So despite what you're reading all up in this thread, the amount of power supplied is going to drive the majority of headphones you pair with it. I am much more worried about its output impedance (something that should be extremely low if this is a properly implemented class D, but we'll see.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by reginalb View Post
 

 

Again, it's got plenty of juice, so long as it's a decent amp. I don't need DX100 level of power, just to sit at a lower volume level. How many headphones do you have that a Clip+ can't power? I will say again, I have exactly 0 pair. Do you walk around with HE-6's on your head?

 

 

wow, the $800 ZX1 has as much power as a clip, now that I know that I'm reassured :rolleyes:

 

I personally hear improvement in all my earphones with more power, up to a certain point of course, even 16 ohm earphones benefit from ~100mW of power, more power is one of the main reasons people get an amp, most people are aware of the sound quality improvments with more power, even with easy to drive, portable iems there can be improvements. I'm not worried about volume, or driving high impedance cans, I'm worried that the power won't do some harder to drive portables justice in terms of sound, like sony's own high end iem's. Of course I'm only speculating.

post #759 of 6173
Quote:
Originally Posted by reginalb View Post
 

 

 

And 15mW per channel is enough to do that, so long as output impedance is low. 

 

Maybe.

 

Maybe not.

 

We'll see.

post #760 of 6173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mython View Post
 

 

Why is it that on Head-fi, so many members (even experienced ones like yourself) fail, time & again, to understand that high current delivery is not only required for high-impedance cans?

 

Multi-BA CIEMs quite often have low impedance, with notable dips, at certain frequencies, to very low impedance. This places greater demand upon current delivery.

 

 

No one is saying that 15mw cannot drive a CIEM to a reasonable volume. But volume isn't the issue.

 

The issue is being able to deliver sufficient current to accomplish appropriate excursion at all frequencies, even those that coincide with scarily low impedance.

 

 

 

None of which really requires necessarily more power but rather a well matched output impedance (given maximum power transfer takes place when impedances are matched) and an amplifier topology which has excellent slew rate/transient response characteristics. Get a 15mW output stage with excellent slew rate and it will rival the 100mW units - running at the same level of power, of course. I certainly wasn't discounting the lower impedance headphones out there and my custom UE11 triple drivers happily work with my F807 - proof to me at least that Sony did allow for a reasonably low impedance output stage. I'm not going to sit at my workbench and start measuring and graphing the actual power output though. At the end of the day, it may very well still have those dips but the unit belts out the sound that I'm after in my combination and that's all that matters at the end of the day.

 

Ultimately, nobody is going to agree with anyone else on what sounds best to them. That's just the unique nature of perception. All the while, there's no right or wrong in all of this either.

 

I'm just can't fathom how people can argue that they're going to have issues before they've even had a chance to listen to the damn thing! Is it wise to buy speakers without listening to your favourite CD on the showroom floor and hopefully with similar settings to the room you're going to throw it into? Of course not. You at least take a listen because at the end of the day, the specs may make it look great on paper but there may be something that your ears pick up that you might not like. This is why we can't listen with our eyes (ie. make judgements off spec sheets) and we certainly can't be quick to praise or write off a unit in that way.

 

As my old man once told me, let me fart first, then you can smell it.

post #761 of 6173
Quote:

 

Originally Posted by Mython View Post
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnakChan View Post
 

But ever considered the possibly Sony isn't targeting for customers like yourselves who are seeking for more power?? There are those options by other makers that you've already mentioned. If anything, the ZX1 (and all other Sony walkmans) were made to push for their own current earphones/headphones instead - and they not high impedance h/e-phones.

 

Why is it that on Head-fi, so many members (even experienced ones like yourself) fail, time & again, to understand that high current delivery is not only required for high-impedance cans?

 

Multi-BA CIEMs quite often have low impedance, with notable dips, at certain frequencies, to very low impedance. This places greater demand upon current delivery.

 

 

Please feel free to educate than to berate then. I don't see any value in your post except to criticise. I've read your explanation you posted here #215, and like you I'm not an electronics engineer and I can only go my practical tests. All I know is that if I plug my TG!334 I get very satisfactory SQ but with my V-Modex (that's a V-Moda LP2 with T50RP drivers in it), less than satisfactory SQ.

 

I'd appreciate if you can make a recommendation of a high impedance can that does not require high current delivery, and if it's not too pricey I'd be happy to buy it and bring it to the Sony Ginza store again to test and report back to this audience here.

 

Originally Posted by Mython View Post

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnakChan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by T.R.A.N.C.E. View Post
 

And I doubt the general consumer would pay so much for a DAP

 

I think your underestimate the consumers here in Japan.

 

Really? I wonder who here is really the one underestimating consumers in Japan. Fitear (as just one example) is extremely popular in Japan. Their products are high-end and whilst I don't claim to know the exact impedance curves of their CIEMs, they are multi-BA designs, so there is a fair chance that they may be wired such that they present a relatively low impedance load to an amp stage.

 

I have no idea what you're about here. My response is in direct reference to "I doubt the general consumer would pay so much for this DAP". I see no reference to "power", "impedance", or anything technical. It has to do with levels of spending desire.

 

Originally Posted by Mython View Post

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnakChan View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by T.R.A.N.C.E. View Post
 

I just hope sony does us proud, none of this general consumer rubbish :D

 

I also must say, outside of the business aspect, that I think it's rather selfish with the idea of keeping the so-called audiophile level products solely for the audiophile market & ignoring the consumer market.

 

What?

 

Please tell me what is selfish about expecting decent power output? :confused:

 

Decent power output in no way excludes mass-market consumers. It caters for all consumers, regardless of what IEMs/CIEMs they prefer.

 

My old D-777 discmans have respectable current delivery, and no consumer ever complained about them having too much.

 

Again, don't know what you're on about here. My response has nothing to do about a product's capability to cater for all levels of audio consumers. It is in response to an individual's attitude and opinion that the general consumer isn't worthy of consideration.

post #762 of 6173
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnakChan View Post
 

Again, don't know what you're on about here. My response has nothing to do about a product's capability to cater for all levels of audio consumers. It is in response to an individual's attitude and opinion that the general consumer isn't worthy of consideration.

 

Umm, all I want is more power output, I don't think that hurts the general consumer... It just benefits the audiophile. My comment wasn't meant to be taken literally. And my "doubt consumer spending" comment wasn't aimed at Japan, was aimed at the world in general. But I guess since this is a Jap only release right now its not relevent.


Edited by T.R.A.N.C.E. - 10/21/13 at 6:30am
post #763 of 6173
Quote:
Originally Posted by T.R.A.N.C.E. View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnakChan View Post
 

Again, don't know what you're on about here. My response has nothing to do about a product's capability to cater for all levels of audio consumers. It is in response to an individual's attitude and opinion that the general consumer isn't worthy of consideration.

 

Umm, all I want is more power output, I don't think that hurts the general consumer...


I think it would hurt someone. Think about the trade-offs between power, battery life and physical size.

More power output means less running time unless the unit is made larger to accommodate a larger battery.

You might be happy with the extra bulk because you are used to carrying outboard amps. The general consumer typically isn't. So, Sony's design team weighed up the options and did what they could to minimise power consumption so as not to sacrifice the unit's portability.
post #764 of 6173

What's the headphone output power of NW-Z 1070?

post #765 of 6173
Quote:
Originally Posted by sabatar View Post
 

What's the headphone output power of NW-Z 1070?


http://www.sony.jp/walkman/products/NW-Z1000_series/spec.html

According to this specification it looks like it has maximum power output 5+5 mW. It wasn't hard to find it :P

 

In my opinion 15+15 mW would be quite enough for most IEMs/CIEMs. My NWZ-X1050 (5+5 mW) has enough power (I don't go beyond half the volume range) for my XBA-3, MDR-EX700 and MDR-1R, so for me 15+15 mW would be definitely enough. I think...


Edited by Aelavin - 10/21/13 at 8:32am
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