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Sony NWZ-ZX1 - 35th Walkman Anniversary model - Page 5

post #61 of 6312
Quote:
Originally Posted by sensui123 View Post
 

It's almost certain that:

 

1)  It's going to be an android device (from the previous walkman generations and current xperia lines)

2)  It's not going to have any removable storage (per Sony's ways ala Apple to prevent expandability/vulnerabilities)

3)  It will support English.....I've bought Sony Japanese Walkman products all the way back to cassett players/md recorders/md players/discmans (even these had english printed on the device for buttons) and I can't think of 1 device where English wasn't a supported language.

 

The only variables really (now that we know what it looks like) is how good the amp/dac implementation sounds, battery life/cpu type, and storage.

 

Looking to be very solid indeed, I'm excited like the rest of you.

The Sony NW-A84x & A86x Japan version don't support English language menu. 

post #62 of 6312
Quote:
Originally Posted by sensui123 View Post
 

That is truly news to me and I find it pretty strange.  The good part is I know my kanji and kanas so least I'll survive even if it's in Japanese.  Did they make international versions of those in Japan with the English option?  They often have those types of products too for popular electronics with no English support to sell @ duty free stores in Akihabara.

 

If you remember, this was the time when they started NW-x for Japan and NWZ-x for the rest of the world (including the export/international versions in the shops in Japan for tourists who don't know better lol). Sony started keeping some features - like ATRAC - Japan only. That was also the time when Sony killed ATRAC in the rest of the world.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by purk View Post
 

 

They have been; however, they have not stand still and just use the last generation S-master amplifier on the next offerings.  I'm just glad that they continue to refine their design and focus more on sound quality.  That's why I'm glad they are creating the ZX1.   Why would you need Atrac when Sony is widely support FLAC format now?  Nothing against Atrac as Atrac Lossless is great as well.

 

I've been using ATRAC going back to the NW-HD3 and 5. I see no need to switch - for portable use ATRAC3+ at 352 sounds great. WHy would i use FLAC or lossless and re-encode? Takes up too much space for portable use. While I like good sound quality, there is a point of 'good enough' when I'm listening on a plane. I use Sony's X-App which is Japan only (technically) to do any new encodings. I don't use any other kind of media player for home use, so encoding to FLAC isn't important to me. It's nice that the Z and F support it, but I don't need it.

 

As an aside, the NW-HD3 is still one of my favorite pieces of audio engineering. So small.


Edited by FenderP - 9/12/13 at 11:32am
post #63 of 6312
Quote:
Originally Posted by FenderP View Post
 

 

I've been using ATRAC going back to the NW-HD3 and 5. I see no need to switch - for portable use ATRAC3+ at 352 sounds great. WHy would i use FLAC or lossless and re-encode? Takes up too much space for portable use. While I like good sound quality, there is a point of 'good enough' when I'm listening on a plane. I use Sony's X-App which is Japan only (technically) to do any new encodings. I don't use any other kind of media player for home use, so encoding to FLAC isn't important to me. It's nice that the Z and F support it, but I don't need it.

Well, the point of owning the ZX1 or the 866 for that matter is to listen to hi-rez formats.  If not, I would stay with a lesser models.  Like you, I'm quite familiar with ATRAC as I'm one of the first adopter of the MD format and use ATRAC Lossless & Plus 352 on my A867 Japan.  I am still holding on to the Sony MZ-R50 after all these years.  My dislike of Atrac Lossless is that user can only transcode it into a compressed formats.  I don't recall any 3rd party software that able to convert Atrac Lossless to other lossless formats.  To go from Atrac Lossless to FLAC, one will need to convert the OMA files to Wav, retag, and then convert into Flac which is a big convenience to me.  I have to admit that the Atrac3 + 352 kbps is great.

post #64 of 6312
Quote:
Originally Posted by purk View Post
 

Well, the point of owning the ZX1 or the 866 for that matter is to listen to hi-rez formats.  If not, I would stay with a lesser models.  Like you, I'm quite familiar with ATRAC as I'm one of the first adopter of the MD format and use ATRAC Lossless & Plus 352 on my A867 Japan.  I am still holding on to the Sony MZ-R50 after all these years.  My dislike of Atrac Lossless is that user can only transcode it into a compressed formats.  I don't recall any 3rd party software that able to convert Atrac Lossless to other lossless formats.  To go from Atrac Lossless to FLAC, one will need to convert the OMA files to Wav, retag, and then convert into Flac which is a big convenience to me.  I have to admit that the Atrac3 + 352 kbps is great.

 

For me, ATRAC3+ at 352 is that 'good enough' on the road. I do have some hi-rez files, but for the road - meh. I'm skipping the new F. Battery life with hi-rez is going to be bad. What will be intriguing is to see if the ZX1 will support DSD files. That I can get behind. I've got more of that than I do 192 or 96/24 (encoded it with a Tascam DV-RA1000 I've had for years). That's one of the reasons the updated F has little appeal for me - no bump in size or support of DSD. And if Sony killed the Walkman simulation app on the new F, I can't get behind it. It's one of my favorite features of  the F807 :)

 

The draw of the ZX1 for me is the higher capacity. It's why I switched from the X1060 to the A847.

 

Agree on transcoding with ATRAC. It's pretty much a no go. I don't think X-App supports FLAC - I'll have to check.

post #65 of 6312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Q Mass View Post

 

I'd buy the AK120, but......HOW much!!

 

I like Sony gear, but I've not had a DAP from them since the D2 came out, and the only upcoming DAP that really tempts me is the DX50  ( or maaayyybe the X5 ).

 

Sorry Sony :-/

 

 

I see the iBasso DX50 as being a potential market-changer.

 

It's not that the DX50 is a giant-killer (it isn't) but it offers a lot for the money, including decent build quality.

 

And, notwithstanding my misgivings over it's alteration in output power, the X5 looks set to offer good build and sound quality for mid-price (circa $500).

 

The X5 and DX50 herald significant changes, in terms of what customers will now expect for their money (and they embarrass iRiver's greed even further).

 

 

Sony are egotists if they continue to think they can charge more than $500 for their flagship DAPs whilst still hand-cuffing customers in terms of expandability and other features already present on cheaper competitors from China (like Fiio and iBasso). It is very obvious that Sony do watch what the rest of the world is producing, and this is apparent from their surprise release of an iPod-specific DAC quite recently, and their balanced armature universal IEMs, etc.   But their arrogance will be their undoing if they think they can continue to ignore the likes of iBasso and Fiio. Sony may be much larger and may be able to produce their own amp/dac chips, but the age-old maxim that 'the bigger they are, the harder they fall' has never ceased to be true. Apple have faltered (IMO) since Jobs' demise, and Sony have suffered painful losses in the flat screen marketplace, this past couple of years. The point is that unless they start serving their customers sincerely, rather than serving their own selfish interests first & foremost, they'll end up shooting themselves in the feet.

 

Personally, I have a love-hate relationship with Sony.

 

I still own (and really rate) a couple of their D-777 discmans, and had a number of cassette walkmen (and non-flagship discmans) during the 1980s and 1990s. I have genuine fondness and respect for all of those products, and, as a whole, view Sony as one of the better mass-market electronics vendors. But I really dislike their sh1tty attitude towards handcuffing customers of their present-day DAPs, in so many ways, just like Apple do.

 

If they carry on like this, even these 2 giants (Apple and Sony) will become extinct. Self-serving dinosaurs are running out of time, in a marketplace where the likes of Fiio and iBasso (for the most part) listen to, and serve the needs of, their customers, and without hand-cuffing them in a selfish attempt to ensure planned obsolescence and forced upgrading every 2 years.

 

 

I hope Sony will grow up and serve the needs of their customers with this forthcoming flagship DAP, but I'm not holding my breath. What I do like about Sony's high-end DAPs is the relatively slick interface, generally decent audio engineering, and lovely industrial design, but their penchant for producing amp stages which are proprietary IC-based is unfortunate for those of us who prefer amp stages with a bit more emphasis on current delivery than on power efficiency.


Edited by Mython - 9/12/13 at 12:55pm
post #66 of 6312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mython View Post
 

 

 

I see the iBasso DX50 as being a potential market-changer.

 

It's not that the DX50 is a giant-killer (it isn't) but it offers a lot for the money, including decent build quality.

 

And, notwithstanding my misgivings over it's alteration in output power, the X5 looks set to offer good build and sound quality for mid-price (circa $500).

 

The X5 and DX50 herald significant changes, in terms of what customers will now expect for their money (and they embarrass iRiver's greed even further).

 

 

Sony are egotists if they continue to think they can charge more than $500 for their flagship DAPs whilst still hand-cuffing customers in terms of expandability and other features already present on cheaper competitors from China (like Fiio and iBasso). It is very obvious that Sony do watch what the rest of the world is producing, and this is apparent from their surprise release of an iPod-specific DAC quite recently, and their balanced armature universal IEMs, etc.   But their arrogance will be their undoing if they think they can continue to ignore the likes of iBasso and Fiio. Sony may be much larger and may be able to produce their own amp/dac chips, but the age-old maxim that 'the bigger they are, the harder they fall' has never ceased to be true. Apple have faltered (IMO) since Jobs' demise, and Sony have suffered painful losses in the flat screen marketplace, this past couple of years. The point is that unless they start serving their customers sincerely, rather than serving their own selfish interests first & foremost, they'll end up shooting themselves in the feet.

 

Personally, I have a love-hate relationship with Sony.

 

I still own (and really rate) a couple of their D-777 discmans, and had a number of cassette walkmen (and non-flagship discmans) during the 1980s and 1990s. I have genuine fondness and respect for all of those products, and, as a whole, view Sony as one of the better mass-market electronics vendors. But I really dislike their sh1tty attitude towards handcuffing customers of their present-day DAPs, in so many ways, just like Apple do.

 

If they carry on like this, even these 2 giants (Apple and Sony) will become extinct. Self-serving dinosaurs are running out of time, in a marketplace where the likes of Fiio and iBasso (for the most part) listen to, and serve the needs of, their customers, and without hand-cuffing them in a selfish attempt to ensure planned obsolescence and forced upgrading every 2 years.

 

 

I hope Sony will grow up and serve the needs of their customers with this forthcoming flagship DAP, but I'm not holding my breath. What I do like about Sony's high-end DAPs is the relatively slick interface, generally decent audio engineering, and lovely industrial design, but their penchant for producing amp stages which are proprietary IC-based is unfortunate for those of us who prefer amp stages with a bit more emphasis on current delivery than on power efficiency.

 

I don't know where you've been, but Sony has been a 'small' player in the DAP market for quite a few years. Apple far and away owns the market, and I would argue that the most common DAP is the iPhone. Sony embracing things like Android, making things that are iPhone/Pod compatible, etc., - they are much more open than I ever remember them being.

 

So I think you're the one who is a bit out of touch with where Sony really is in this space. I never have a need for expansion, and quite frankly, most don't either. It's a niche of a niche.

post #67 of 6312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mython View Post
 

 

 

I see the iBasso DX50 as being a potential market-changer.

 

It's not that the DX50 is a giant-killer (it isn't) but it offers a lot for the money, including decent build quality.

 

And, notwithstanding my misgivings over it's alteration in output power, the X5 looks set to offer good build and sound quality for mid-price (circa $500).

 

The X5 and DX50 herald significant changes, in terms of what customers will now expect for their money (and they embarrass iRiver's greed even further).

 

 

Sony are egotists if they continue to think they can charge more than $500 for their flagship DAPs whilst still hand-cuffing customers in terms of expandability and other features already present on cheaper competitors from China (like Fiio and iBasso).  It is very obvious that Sony do watch what the rest of the world is producing, and this is apparent from their surprise release of an iPod-specific DAC quite recently, and their balanced armature universal IEMs, etc.   But their arrogance will be their undoing if they think they can continue to ignore the likes of iBasso and Fiio. Sony may be much larger and may be able to produce their own amp/dac chips, but the age-old maxim that 'the bigger they are, the harder they fall' has never ceased to be true. Apple have faltered (IMO) since Jobs' demise, and Sony have suffered painful losses in the flat screen marketplace, this past couple of years. The point is that unless they start serving their customers sincerely, rather than serving their own selfish interests first & foremost, they'll end up shooting themselves in the feet.

 

I hope Sony will grow up and serve the needs of their customers with this forthcoming flagship DAP, but I'm not holding my breath. What I do like about Sony's high-end DAPs is the relatively slick interface, generally decent audio engineering, and lovely industrial design, but their penchant for producing amp stages which are proprietary IC-based is unfortunate for those of us who prefer amp stages with a bit more emphasis on current delivery than on power efficiency.

To be quite frank, beside the expandable memory issue...I've found their flagship walkmans to offer much better design than the Chinese counterparts.  Beside the DX100, the best sound I've experienced with DAPs comes from the Sony Flaghship series (A, F, and Z). For instance, the current F walkman comes with a fully functional Andriod operating system and is a dream to use.  It sounds noticeably more refined than than the DX-50 to my ears unamped using JH13pro in a direct comparison.  Yes, the Chinese DAPs may offer better values but Sony is hardly that bad less the expandable storage issue.  Personally, I have more issues dealing with Chinese DAPs than Sony.  All of my Chinese DAPs appear to be very buggy, occasionally unresponsive with very clunky UI (DX100 anyone?).  Of course, we can agree on the iRiver issues.


Edited by purk - 9/12/13 at 1:13pm
post #68 of 6312
Quote:
Originally Posted by purk View Post
 

To be quite frank, beside the expandable memory issue...I've found their flagship walkmans to offer much better design than the Chinese counterparts.  Beside the DX100, the best sound I've experienced with DAPs comes from the Sony Flaghship series (A, F, and Z). For instance, the current F walkman comes with a fully functional Andriod operating system and is a dream to use.  It sounds noticeably more refined than than the DX-50 to my ears unamped using JH13pro in a direct comparison.  Yes, the Chinese DAPs may offer better values but Sony is hardly that bad less the expandable storage issue.  Personally, I have more issues dealing with Chinese DAPs than Sony.  All of my Chinese DAPs appear to be very buggy, occasionally unresponsive with very clunky UI (DX100 anyone?).  Of course, we can agree on the iRiver issues.

 

And you can install Android apps, etc. Sony doesn't cripple the Android on the Walkman and lock it down only to be a music player, which is something they could have done if they wanted to. Sony isn't perfect, but they get much more right than wrong with their DAPs.

post #69 of 6312

Agreed. I, for one, would be scared off. Not because I wouldn't like to spend that much money on a really great DAP, but just because I can't afford it!

post #70 of 6312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecala View Post
 

There are alot of people here interested it seems although many will get scared off if this device sells north of $800.

 

Agreed. I, for one, would be scared off by such a sticker price. Not because I wouldn't like spending that sum in a really great DAP, but because I can't afford it. Sorry I replied to this post in a "general" reply. Hence, it is duplicated.

post #71 of 6312
Quote:
Originally Posted by FenderP View Post
 

 

And you can install Android apps, etc. Sony doesn't cripple the Android on the Walkman and lock it down only to be a music player, which is something they could have done if they wanted to. Sony isn't perfect, but they get much more right than wrong with their DAPs.

 

Agree with this, too. I've had the old A816 and then jumped to a Z1060, which I totally love. I'm VERY excited about this new wave of hi-res audio products. I'd even consider getting an F886 (I find the Z way more comfortable in terms of screen usage) for a more portable set up. But if the ZX-1 ticks the right boxes, I'd be willing to spend substantially more than the $360 I paid when the Z first came out (although $800 would be too much). Can't wait for these products to hit the shelves (figuratively, of course).

post #72 of 6312
Quote:
Originally Posted by FenderP View Post
 

 

I don't know where you've been, but Sony has been a 'small' player in the DAP market for quite a few years. Apple far and away owns the market, and I would argue that the most common DAP is the iPhone. Sony embracing things like Android, making things that are iPhone/Pod compatible, etc., - they are much more open than I ever remember them being.

 

So I think you're the one who is a bit out of touch with where Sony really is in this space. I never have a need for expansion, and quite frankly, most don't either. It's a niche of a niche.

 

No, you interpreted my remarks about Sony in a way I hadn't intended.

 

Although I was discussing DAPs, my point about Sony risking falling by the wayside was meant in a broader sense, the DAPs being indicative of a broader risk in terms of company ethos - i.e. company selfishness first, and screw what the customer actually needs.

 

I am just as much aware of where Sony and Apple, and others, sit in the DAP marketplace as you are, thankyou.

 

 

Your assumption that 'most don't have a need for expansion' is rather presumptuous (no offence intended). At the lower end of the market, perhaps, but at the higher end of the market, people willing to shell out big bucks for a flagship DAP have every right to expect larger (or expandable) memory capacity, so they can play a reasonably large library of low-compression, or lossless, files.

 

Garbage IN, Garbage OUT.

 

 

I'm not saying that to start a 'sound science' debate about SQ of compressed files, I'm just pointing out a basic maxim that it's just not acceptable to charge big bucks for high-end audio performance if the hardware is hamstrung with relatively small capacity.

 

On the face of it, that prototype looks beautiful, but I won't be buying one if Sony take too many liberties with limiting it's feature set.

 

 

In other news, today, Apple announced the 'new' (LOL) iPhone, which has almost no significant innovation over it's predecessor, but I'm sure that won't stop millions of sheeple mindlessly buying it, regardless (and, as you pointed out, no doubt playing their limited audio libraries on it) :smile:

post #73 of 6312

Since this is an anniversary special I reckon we may see even a 1TB player. Sony is known to bring suprises whether good or bad. Most of Sony internal storage rely on Toshiba & Samsung. I wont be suprised if they partnered to produce the world first terabyte storage for this special anniversary. Cost maybe even in the 1000+ range, and knowing Sony its going to sound great.

post #74 of 6312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mython View Post
 

 

.............. it's just not acceptable to charge big bucks for high-end audio performance if the hardware is hamstrung with relatively small capacity.

 

On the face of it, that prototype looks beautiful, but I won't be buying one if Sony take too many liberties with limiting it's feature set............

I agree.

I wont presume to know what proportion of Sony's customer base wants/can do without expandable storage, but MY money wont be getting spent on a player without it ( unless there's in excess of 100GB built in, and even then I'd still prefer a card slot ).

For me it's just not attractive to have that limitation, no matter what the other merits of the device may be ( even though I think it'll probably be beautiful, work well and sound great )

 

It's a great shame for the likes of me, but not for those who don't care about expandability.

 

The thing is, that a lack of a card slot will certainly put SOME off, but I think that the inclusion of a slot would hardly put any off.

post #75 of 6312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mython View Post
 

 

No, you interpreted my remarks about Sony in a way I hadn't intended.

 

Although I was discussing DAPs, my point about Sony risking falling by the wayside was meant in a broader sense, the DAPs being indicative of a broader risk in terms of company ethos - i.e. company selfishness first, and screw what the customer actually needs.

 

I am just as much aware of where Sony and Apple, and others, sit in the DAP marketplace as you are, thankyou.

 

 

Your assumption that 'most don't have a need for expansion' is rather presumptuous (no offence intended). At the lower end of the market, perhaps, but at the higher end of the market, people willing to shell out big bucks for a flagship DAP have every right to expect larger (or expandable) memory capacity, so they can play a reasonably large library of low-compression, or lossless, files.

 

Garbage IN, Garbage OUT.

 

 

I'm not saying that to start a 'sound science' debate about SQ of compressed files, I'm just pointing out a basic maxim that it's just not acceptable to charge big bucks for high-end audio performance if the hardware is hamstrung with relatively small capacity.

 

On the face of it, that prototype looks beautiful, but I won't be buying one if Sony take too many liberties with limiting it's feature set.

 

 

In other news, today, Apple announced the 'new' (LOL) iPhone, which has almost no significant innovation over it's predecessor, but I'm sure that won't stop millions of sheeple mindlessly buying it, regardless (and, as you pointed out, no doubt playing their limited audio libraries on it) :smile:

 

I see no major limitations. As I've said, for most, 64GB is more than enough and Sony over the past few years has balanced the need for features and such. I would like more, but I don't need more. Even on a long flight (for example, flying to Australia), I would be able to listen to a small percentage of what's on the 64GB Sony. So I question why anyone really needs all that storage even if it is optional. Would it be nice to have for some? Sure, I could see where it could be appealing, but by and large as I say above, Sony gets more right than they get wrong. So I disagree wiuth your premise that anyone has the right to expect expandable memory. I will agree that 64GB these days should not be the top, but also as I've mentioned, it seems that is the agreed upon 'good enough' for flash-based storage in a DAP (or a phone, such as the Lumia 1020 in some markets). I have been hoping for a few years someone would up the ante to 128GB. Maybe the ZX1 will be it. We can hope.

 

One feature which was NOT standard (and still isn't in some players) is gapless. That's something I expect and one reason I stuck with ATRAC and Sony. It was always gapless.

 

Sony even implemented FLAC - something I thought I'd never see. They are showing a willingness to do certain things when they want to. In fact, Sony as a company has been aligning their product lines much better under Kaz. Hate to say it, but they are going in a pretty singular direction. I would say they're painted much less in a corner than Apple is overall.

 

For fun, let's compare the Astell & Kern AK120. It has 64GB and 2 x microSD ... but it's also $1300 US. Even if the new ZX1 comes in at $699  you can buy two of these for one AK120. Yes, the AK120 supports DSD now, but from what I saw it has had its teething pains. Sony even with the Android-based Walkmans is more mature. I would trust Sony to be around in a few years - not A&K. Hell, the AK120 unless I've read wrong doesn't even have a line out - at least you can get that from Sony's WM-Port. Talk about a feature I'd expect from a high end DAP. And now with hi-rez, I would almost start to expect some form of digital out (such as what Sony does on recorders like their PCM series).

 

So it's all relative. To me, not having SD support is not limiting its feature set. Not having gapless is. Quite honestly, I've never, ever used the 'perfect' DAP. Every single one has had some tradeoffs or things I wish were better. We all vote with our proverbial dollar as to what we buy, but Sony will get my money. I've used others over the years (Toshiba, JVC, Cowon, Apple, and probably one or two other brands) - I always go back to Sony over any other vendor.


Edited by FenderP - 9/12/13 at 6:53pm
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