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Sony NWZ-ZX1 - 35th Walkman Anniversary model - Page 15

post #211 of 6608
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mython View Post
 

 

 

I can't read Japanese, but the chart seems to say that the F887 has FM radio, and the ZX1 doesn't (that suits me just fine)

 

Also, that chart appears to state 15mw+15mw for the ZX1, and 10mw+10mw for the F887

 

 

 

I was looking at the forthcoming X5, and disappointed that they dropped the intended power output.

 

Just mulling this over, the past few minutes, and it occurs to me that they ZX1 is so remarkably compact that it might be viable for me to strap it to a (compact) amp and still have it in my pocket. I don't know. I'd much much rather not have to have a seperate amp. Decisions, decisions...

It is depending on what are you planning to pair with the ZX1.  I have the Pico Power and has not used it in ages.  I always go for portability over slight increased in sound quality.  Of course, I got my my main rigs if I want the very best sound.

post #212 of 6608
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimouille View Post


What does change in mw entail?

 

Says that under "headphone highest output" (JEITA 16Ω/mW).  It is going to be a different/more powerful amp apparently.

post #213 of 6608
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mython View Post
 

 

After I sold my DX100, I lost touch a bit, in regard to Android playback of hi-rez files. The DX100 has a slow CPU and gingerbread Android, so iBasso had to write their own kernel to handle hi-rez files.

 

 

DX100 aside, there was talk about newer versions of Android potentially catering for hi-rez playback as standard. Did the Android community integrate hi-rez playback in Android 4.x ?

 

I have seen newer Android devices offering hi-rez playback, but I don't know if they were using proprietary kernels to accomplish that.

 

Cheers.

 

I honestly have no idea.  I don't have any hi-rez files, myself. I only brought up the idea of downloading other music apps to address Sony's long-time  lack of gapless support, which on the non-Android players, could only be circumvented by using WAV or ATRAC files.

 

Since three out of the four Sony DAPs I have owned were 16GB models, I had no interest in loading them with WAV files just to get gapless.....I simply left the gapless albums off of them. 

post #214 of 6608
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mython View Post  I'm certainly eager to see if Sony can pull off a minor miracle and get decent grunt from such a compact device. iRiver fell short with the AKs, which was a pity, as they were fairly nicely designed.

 

The biggest issue, IMHO, with PWM systems is hiss. I have one, and it hisses like a Texas Cottonmouth. IIRC, the older Sony A-series that also have S-Master inside had hiss issues as well. However, notice that on the ZX1, Sony specifically chose capacitors from Sanyo (OS-CON, POSCAP) that have very low ESR, which are important to good LC low-pass design. It also needs to be designed up to the limit of the Nyquist frequency of 24/192 music (well, the processor needs to have fast enough duty cycles to generate a PWM signal that fast, but I assume Sony's chip is capable of doing that; at the very least, the PCM signal is noise-shaped with Delta-Sigma modulation and dropped down to a reasonable 14-bit PWM signal, but I really have no idea how Sony does it).

 

Anyway, the point is that the implementation, from D/A conversion to amplification is completely different. S-Master HX is more like the Nuforce DDA-100 than it is like the AK100/120, or any of the audiophile DAPs.

post #215 of 6608
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimouille View Post


What does change in mw entail?

 

I'm not an electronics engineer. My understanding is simply that an amp capable of delivering greater current will handle low-impedance loads more adeptly. It is very important to understand that headphones do not have 'an' impedance rating. Their impedance varies with frequency. This seems to be a particular issue with some of the multi-BA CIEMs, which, at certain frequencies, can present a remarkably low impedance to the amp stage. Crudely-speaking, lower impedances draw more current from the amp stage, so (again, crudely-speaking) if the amp stage 'runs out of steam' it may not be able to drive the armature / diaphragm cleanly to it's intended excursion for the piece of music being played.

 

As just one example, my Cowon J3 failed miserably to adequately drive my UM Miracles (which, as you know, is a 6 BA per earpiece design). The treble was coarse and splashy, and the bass was woefully inadequate. I would never have believed how much of a difference the DX100 could make to the sound of the Miracles until I heard it for myself. I don't mean in terms of the DAC or anything, I mean in terms of the interaction between the amp and the CIEM. It was a major eye-opener for me and one I will never forget. So profound was the difference that I literally went from considering a change from the Miracle to the Merlin, to suddenly realising that the Miracle DOES have decent bass response, when driven appropriately. For comparison, the J3 has quite respectable bass response with dynamic drivers such as my Denon AH-C701. I admit I did rant too rather too much in the X5 thread, when James announced that the power output was to be reduced. Whilst I appreciate that the X5 will be more powerful than the J3, it was nonetheless because I have experienced how drastically the SQ can alter, depending on how capable the amp stage is, that I was so disappointed at the reduction in spec of the amp stage of the X5.

 

This is complicated, of course, by differences between DAPs in terms of their amp stage's inherent output impedance. And I know you already know all this; we're just chatting here :beerchug:

 

We will have to wait and see if Sony have spoiled all their hard work by producing the ZX1 with insufficiently-low output impedance.   Now, this is something I would welcome any of you electronics whizzes teaching me about - with a Class-D amp, am I right in thinking that output impedance is a rather different kettle of fish?  I hold my hands up and openly admit that I lack electronics expertise, so I welcome anyone educating me on this issue.

 

 

 

This ZX1 is looking so exceptionally sweet, in terms of design and form factor, that I might be willing to make an exception and consider using it with a seperate amp. I have always steadfastly refused to consider a seperate amp, but with something so compact as the ZX1, I might just make an exception...

post #216 of 6608
I don't think this walkman can power headphones higher than 300 ohm....and the power output is quite low.
post #217 of 6608
Quote:
Originally Posted by musicday View Post

I don't think this walkman can power headphones higher than 300 ohm....and the power output is quite low.

 

Probably not.  You will need a dedicate amp to amp a lineout for that.  All I care is that the ZX1 will be able drive CIEMs to the best of its ability, hopefully as good as the DX100 if not better.  The best my JH13pro ever sound was coming from my Audio-Technica AT-DHA3000 digital amplifier.

post #218 of 6608

What makes me interested in this player (I'd be very surprised if we saw it in europe) is that unlike the fiio and ibasso efforts the firmware should be at least "ok" right out the gate or at least you'd hope so.

post #219 of 6608
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidcotton View Post
 

What makes me interested in this player (I'd be very surprised if we saw it in europe) is that unlike the fiio and ibasso efforts the firmware should be at least "ok" right out the gate or at least you'd hope so.

 

You're probably right. Out of the four Sony DAPs I've owned, only one of them has received a firmware update while I owned it....everything just plain works right out of the gate, just like my Apple players have.

post #220 of 6608
Damn, 70.000 yen. frown.gif

This looks really appealing to me but it's just too expensive right now, and my A847 is still working fine. I'm glad they're still making them though, I thought I read a while back that they stopped production on the Walkman series but must've been false alarm.
post #221 of 6608
Quote:
Originally Posted by starfly View Post
 

 

But again, in this specific case it's not necessary to increase the density. They can just increase the number of flash chips in there. And I realise that MLC and NAND != SD. I'm just pointing out that it's already possible to have high density in a small package.

 
I fully realise that smaller and denser is more expensive. I have experienced the whole storage space evolution myself, my first HD was perhaps 200 MB or something, and that was an expensive piece of technology. But now we already have the technology to pack 32,000x that storage space on your fingernail. I don't see why manufacturers haven't started bringing out DAPs with more internal storage sooner. You don't really need to develop new technology for that. And you certainly don't have to double the price or make it more than double. The cutting edge with flash memory is I would say in SSDs currently. But a DAP really doesn't need to have high speed flash memory, just fast enough for it to be able to stream high bitrate files.
 
Also, we've had SSDs for a few years now and the price has dropped really fast. So I just don't get why it has to be so expensive in an audio player. And here again the increase in storage leads to a degressive increase in price (up to a certain point). Here a simple price comparison:
 
Samsung 840 EVO 120 GB: € 87
Samsung 840 EVO 250 GB: € 155 (78% price increase, 108% storage increase)
Samsung 840 EVO 500 GB: € 293 (89% price increase, 100% storage increase)
Samsung 840 EVO 1 TB    : € 507 (73% price increase, 100% storage increase)
 
These prices are from webshops in the Netherlands.
 
The main point I'm making is that right now doubling the storage space does not double the price (degressive price increase). And that manufacturers could've starting doing this with DAPs sooner.
 
But anyway, we're straying too much off-topic here, perhaps we should start another thread for this :) And I was not trying to offend or insult you, so my apologies if it came across that way.

200MB? Young'un. Try like 10 or 20MB :)

 

My first SSD was a 32GB one that was a $2000 option on a laptop in 2006 or 7 (Vaio VGN-G series).

 

I bought one of the OCZ 1TB SSDs at roughly 2k and paid 3x more than a 512 (which at the time was about $500), early adopters pay the cost :)

 

I remember when 4GB, 8GB, and now 16GB of memory were $800+ options on laptops. Now 16GB is under $120.

 

The point I'm making is whatever 128GB type of memory it is, it's not stock. Like I said, we have gone from $2k 32GB SSDs in 2006 or 7 to 1TB for $600. The economics change with time and competition. If the flash comes in 64GB flavors, 2x whatever they are using now may not fit the motherboard design. Of course we're both speculating a little, but I would say I may not be too far off the beaten path here.


Edited by FenderP - 9/25/13 at 3:54pm
post #222 of 6608
Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicHolyGhost View Post
 

I am pretty surprised that the list price alone is 760usd and all the people here are vouching to order like it was a free giveaway... pretty amazing...... really looking forward to some impressions and reviews appearing in Dec...

 

Jewelry buyers...

post #223 of 6608

but it is an interesting DAP. Hope it delivers as promise.

post #224 of 6608
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomscy2000 View Post

The biggest issue, IMHO, with PWM systems is hiss. I have one, and it hisses like a Texas Cottonmouth.

Certain higher-end Sony amplifiers use C-PLM, rather than PWM, along with 32-bit processing. The ZX1 won't be cheap; perhaps it will use C-PLM.

~Brian
post #225 of 6608
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcarr112281 View Post  Certain higher-end Sony amplifiers use C-PLM, rather than PWM, along with 32-bit processing. The ZX1 won't be cheap; perhaps it will use C-PLM.

 

AFAIK, C-PLM is merely a fancy marketing term for pulse-width modulation with additional voltage modulation --- it's a twist on traditional Class D technique, like Tripath is.

32-bit processing is basically a given; you'll need to noise shape the signal, so noise-shaping at 32 or 64 bits is necessary. I'm not slamming the design --- I think it's elegant in fact, but even with a company like Sony that can make custom ICs, there are challenges to the system, especially when it's miniaturized from their big massive home units.

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