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Sony NWZ-ZX1 - 35th Walkman Anniversary model - Page 14

post #196 of 6034
Quote:
Originally Posted by FenderP View Post
 

 

Again, there's a reason that 1TB SSDs were nearly 4x+ that of a 512 to start with - or why the quest for even traditional storage density with platter-based HDDs come in. I remember when the jump was made from 20 to 40GB. The problem was packing density into a smaller, thinner space. Same with other jumps. Similar concept. Then we get into things like MLC, NAND, etc. AGAIN - 64GB SD != what you put in here. Similar in some ways, but in others, not really.

 

So before you say it doesn't hold up, you need to understand the engineering. Smaller and denser has always been expensive ... and if you're the first to do it, well, do the math.

 

But again, in this specific case it's not necessary to increase the density. They can just increase the number of flash chips in there. And I realise that MLC and NAND != SD. I'm just pointing out that it's already possible to have high density in a small package.

 
I fully realise that smaller and denser is more expensive. I have experienced the whole storage space evolution myself, my first HD was perhaps 200 MB or something, and that was an expensive piece of technology. But now we already have the technology to pack 32,000x that storage space on your fingernail. I don't see why manufacturers haven't started bringing out DAPs with more internal storage sooner. You don't really need to develop new technology for that. And you certainly don't have to double the price or make it more than double. The cutting edge with flash memory is I would say in SSDs currently. But a DAP really doesn't need to have high speed flash memory, just fast enough for it to be able to stream high bitrate files.
 
Also, we've had SSDs for a few years now and the price has dropped really fast. So I just don't get why it has to be so expensive in an audio player. And here again the increase in storage leads to a degressive increase in price (up to a certain point). Here a simple price comparison:
 
Samsung 840 EVO 120 GB: € 87
Samsung 840 EVO 250 GB: € 155 (78% price increase, 108% storage increase)
Samsung 840 EVO 500 GB: € 293 (89% price increase, 100% storage increase)
Samsung 840 EVO 1 TB    : € 507 (73% price increase, 100% storage increase)
 
These prices are from webshops in the Netherlands.
 
The main point I'm making is that right now doubling the storage space does not double the price (degressive price increase). And that manufacturers could've starting doing this with DAPs sooner.
 
But anyway, we're straying too much off-topic here, perhaps we should start another thread for this :) And I was not trying to offend or insult you, so my apologies if it came across that way.
post #197 of 6034
Quote:
Originally Posted by purk View Post

I'm ready to ditch an extremely buggy DX50 so so bad.

I'm interested in the DX50. Would you explain the problems you're experiencing? Have you updated the device to the latest firmware?

Thanks,
Brian
post #198 of 6034
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwinQY View Post
 

Oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god.

 

They did it. They finally did it. 128GB on a Sony DAP. 

So many people I want to thank - my mother, my coach for always believing in me...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimouille View Post
 

Still, at 760$ it competes directly with the DX100 and to a lesser extent the 901...even if it looks much prettier and much smaller, it better sound good at this price...


It certainly blows the DX!00 out of the water in terms of form factor, but I personally doubt it will match the DX100's ability to drive difficult/reactive loads (believe me, I'd absolutely love to see Sony somehow match the DX100 - if they did, in this form factor, it would be an absolutely stunning engineering achievement). But it'll take quite a lot to convince me that the ZX1 can match the DX100's range of abilities, in terms of the integrated amp stage.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by purk View Post
 

 To be honest, I expect the ZX-1 to be as good as the DX100 in audio performance

Whoa! Easy, tiger! Let's just wait and see, before jumping to such conclusions! :blink:

 

 

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomscy2000 View Post
 

 

Battery life is good because the audio unit is PWM (aka Class D), so it's very efficient.

 

Thanks for the insight. Let's not forget the amp stage is a major factor in battery life, though, so (unfortunately) is might not bode well for the amount of grunt at the headphone output. I'm crossing my fingers, but not jumping the gun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by musicday View Post

Battery life is impressive for hi rez player.
Quote:

Originally Posted by FenderP View Post

 

....rated at 32h with 128Kbps MP3s

 

(this isn't aimed at either of you, personally):  Am I really the only one here who is irked when a DAP marketed at very high price, and specifically for Hi-Rez playback, has playback duration listed for pathetic 128gb mp3? That's disingenuous, B$ marketing 'smoke-&-mirrors'. It's absolutely meaningless. I want to see playback duration when playing back the Hi-Rez material for which the DAP is being promoted. It's probably going to be around 18hrs with hi-rez, and that would be a very decent, respectable duration. All I'm saying is they should cut the crap and quote duration for proper Hi-Rez playback.

 

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwinQY View Post
 

> microSD slot

> Sony

 

If there was an audio god, even he wouldn't be able to work miracles to that extent...

 

LOL. Sadly, true!

 

The only mitigating circumstance I will concede to Sony, on this issue, is that it does tend to take a relatively long time to index 64gb+ SD cards. Other than that... well, I've made my viewpoint abundantly clear earlier in this thread :wink:

 

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FenderP View Post

 

Sony isn't stubborn. Starting with the NW-HD series, they've never offered expandability. Anyone who thinks they're going to start now is delusional.

 

Sony most certainly are stubborn, and so are Apple. We can all agree that there are a number of factors influencing which capacities are permitted in Sony/Apple DAPs. Economics, demand, etc., but in terms of economics, that is neatly side-stepped by the inclusion of an SD slot, so why don't they simply manufacture DAPs with whatever onboard capacity they feel is the legitimate sweet-point, and provide an SD slot for customers who have higher-capacity demands? Because they like to enforce planned obsolescence etc. They're stubborn, selfish, and greedy.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FenderP View Post
 

 

SD card != specialized memory chips for things like a Walkman. Things are not that linear with cost, either. Good example: 1TB SSDs just a year or so ago were $2k+. Now you can get ones that are about $600 (Samsung 840 Evo and Crucial M500 960GB).

 

There's probably a reason no one has really done this before - the density needed to put 128GB in something so small isn't cheap.

 

 

I agree that your point about engineering/production cost   non-linearity is a legitimate one, but I would counter (to some degree) by pointing out that whenever we see something hit the market at the top-end, in terms of capacity or speed, we should not naively presume that it is the state of the art. It most definitely is not at all the state of the art. There is a buffer (no pun intended) of time between successful engineering of a product specification and its release to market, even in a fiercely competitive marketplace. Intel, for example, have CPUs in their labs, at any given point in time, which are drastically faster than anything on the market. Same thing for memory producers.

 

Pricing is only partially determined by the market. It is significantly 'influenced' (cough!) by those who produce it. Whilst I wouldn't use the word 'cartel', there is a substantial grey area / continuum between pure market forces, at one end of the continuum, and profit desires of the producer, at the other. The first to market the 'new' capacity/speed gets to charge whatever the hell they like, and then this falsely-high price becomes gradually eroded by market forces, as other producers join the fray with equivalent specification products.

 

I know you already know this, I'm just saying it to point out that a lot of the high pricing for top-tier specification memory is substantially because of profiteering, not necessarily because of vastly higher real levels of engineering or production costs.

 

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by starfly View Post
 

Still it's strange that a 128 GB has to be so expensive. Granted that it's a premium model with more than just 128gb storage, it also has a more powerful amp in it and a 24/192 DAC. But the memory itself is not expensive. At least when looking at SD cards, a 128GB card is not 2x as expensive as a 64GB card. It's more like 40-50% more expensive.

 

Greed / price-gouging is the biggest factor. Not the only factor, of course, but, IMO, the biggest.

 

Generally-speaking, these are incremental increases in specification (capacity); these memory companies are not reinventing the wheel each time they bring a new capacity to market.

 

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FenderP View Post
 

 

Again, there's a reason that 1TB SSDs were nearly 4x+ that of a 512 to start with - or why the quest for even traditional storage density with platter-based HDDs come in. I remember when the jump was made from 20 to 40GB. The problem was packing density into a smaller, thinner space. Same with other jumps. Similar concept. Then we get into things like MLC, NAND, etc. AGAIN - 64GB SD != what you put in here. Similar in some ways, but in others, not really.

 

So before you say it doesn't hold up, you need to understand the engineering. Smaller and denser has always been expensive ... and if you're the first to do it, well, do the math.

 

Everything is relative. Whilst there may be circumstances where doubling capacity really does require substantial engineering challenges and associated R&D, much of the time, we're talking about incremental evolution, and that does not seem to justify the price-gouging we see when they first hit the market. Bottom line is that these companies care most about...their bottom line, and if they have an opportunity to rake in a big chunk of cash in the early days of a product, then that's what they'll invariably attempt to do.

 

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by starfly View Post
 

 

Flash memory simply isn't that expensive.

 

Agreed.

 

 

Apple are currently charging:

 

 

* $100 for a 32gb increase on their iPod Touch.

* $100 for a measly 16gb increase on their iPhone 5c.

* $200 for a 48gb increase on the iPhone 5s

 

 

That's truly disgraceful. One can buy a 32gb SD card for $20 (or $37 for a Sony 64gb SD). Admittedly, onboard memory will be faster; I don't dispute that, but still. They're taking liberties.

 

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by starfly View Post
 

 

But again, in this specific case it's not necessary to increase the density. They can just increase the number of flash chips in there. And I realise that MLC and NAND != SD. I'm just pointing out that it's already possible to have high density in a small package.

 
 
The main point I'm making is that right now doubling the storage space does not double the price (degressive price increase). And that manufacturers could've starting doing this with DAPs sooner.

 

Totally agree.

 

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by starfly View Post
 

 

I think the main reason why we haven't seen 128 GB in smartphones and music players is simply because of a lack of demand. I mean, most people still listen to lossy audio and those take up much less storage space than lossless audio.

 

Partially lack of demand, but also because multinational companies like to have a rigid structure in the evolution of their product range, and device capacity is one easily-marketable factor. Hold back higher capacity until the market is clamouring for it and/or until the capacity of the existing product range is simply starting to look old-hat.

 

Also, it's not easy to innovate new features for products (look at how Apple have struggled, across their entire range, to do anything truly innovative, since Jobs' passing), so when they have to provide a yearly refresh, capacity / speed / screen resolution, are all basic things that they can do to make the new range appear to be worth upgrading to, even if they've done sweet-FA to genuinely innovate anything.

 

 

 

 

 

 

All of this chat aside, the NWZ-ZX1 does look to be a really, really nice compact DAP. One thing that I love about Sony is their ergonomics. They don't always get it right, but generally they are great. Just look at the button placement on this NWZ-ZX1 - even though the device is touchscreen, they've included all the necessary buttons on the side so that one can control the device in-pocket, without looking at it or having to flash it to would-be muggers when you're walking down the street. Much as I love the SQ of the DX100 it drove me absolutely nuts that I had to remove the damn thing from my pocket every single time I wanted to choose a different track :blink:

 

Since there is 128gb onboard the NWZ-ZX1 (as I anticipated, and which was my minimum requirement, in the absence of SD expansion), the deciding factor for me will be if it has enough grunt to drive low-impedance CIEMs properly. If it does, I'll save and buy one. I really will. It is an object lesson in beautiful, practical design, and I'm also pleased to see that the edges of the device have been machined at 90 degrees. Apple got this right on the iPhone 4, but bizarrely got it totally wrong on the current generation iPod Touch (just try to adjust the volume in your pocket - it's hard enough even doing it when it's in your hand! They've streamlined the edge of the chassis so much you can barely press these buttons at all).

 

Anyway, It's nice that we won't have long to find out how the NWZ-ZX1 performs.

 

 

.


Edited by Mython - 9/25/13 at 9:17am
post #199 of 6034

another £££ premium sony. and another sony that will not be able to play gapless correctly in anything other than atrac. atrac which of course, no one uses :rolleyes:

post #200 of 6034
Quote:
Originally Posted by alphabetagaga View Post
 

another £££ premium sony. and another sony that will not be able to play gapless correctly in anything other than atrac. atrac which of course, no one uses :rolleyes:

 

With Android, you'll be able to download another music app that will provide gapless playback.

post #201 of 6034
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mython View Post  Thanks for the insight. Let's not forget the amp stage is a major factor in battery life, though, so (unfortunately) is might not bode well for the amount of grunt at the headphone output. I'm crossing my fingers, but not jumping the gun.

 

Well, I think the point of using an integrated Class D solution is to save space, maintain heat efficiency, and save battery while not sacrificing driving power. If implemented well, then sound quality (the biggest challenge so far for PWM amplifiers) should be good as well. They claim to also have beefed up and overbuilt the power supply in the ZX1 (as compared to the F880 series).

post #202 of 6034
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achmedisdead View Post
 

 

With Android, you'll be able to download another music app that will provide gapless playback.

 

After I sold my DX100, I lost touch a bit, in regard to Android playback of hi-rez files. The DX100 has a slow CPU and gingerbread Android, so iBasso had to write their own kernel to handle hi-rez files.

 

 

DX100 aside, there was talk about newer versions of Android potentially catering for hi-rez playback as standard. Did the Android community integrate hi-rez playback in Android 4.x ?

 

I have seen newer Android devices offering hi-rez playback, but I don't know if they were using proprietary kernels to accomplish that.

 

Cheers.

post #203 of 6034
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomscy2000 View Post
 

 

Well, I think the point of using an integrated Class D solution is to save space, maintain heat efficiency, and save battery while not sacrificing driving power. If implemented well, then sound quality (the biggest challenge so far for PWM amplifiers) should be good as well. They claim to also have beefed up and overbuilt the power supply in the ZX1 (as compared to the F880 series).

 

I'm certainly eager to see if Sony can pull off a minor miracle and get decent grunt from such a compact device. iRiver fell short with the AKs, which was a pity, as they were fairly nicely designed.

post #204 of 6034
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoMoreMusic View Post
 

 

Amazon Japan has it listed at the moment for Yen 74800

 

Sweet, I guess that tells it's not a limited kind of promotion in Japan.  This will make me rest easy since I don't have to buy right away and can see impressions before I decide....

 

@ purk, I'd be pretty surprised if this thing sounds as good as the DX100, I'm still of the opinion that the DX50 sounds better than the Z1070 I have by a couple notches so we'll see where this one places.  If Sony gets the SQ that great, I'd buy this without a second thought, right not it's a 80% chance I'd buy one hah.

post #205 of 6034

Guys excuse me just one more or less OT..
To play 24/192 flac files do I need a player with the flac codec AND a 24/192 DAC or the only codec is enough? Of course in this last case I can't appreciate the full quality of the file, such as playing a DVD on a non HDready screen.

Thx!

post #206 of 6034
post #207 of 6034
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mython View Post
 

 

I'm certainly eager to see if Sony can pull off a minor miracle and get decent grunt from such a compact device. iRiver fell short with the AKs, which was a pity, as they were fairly nicely designed.

 

 
Whoa! Easy, tiger! Let's just wait and see, before jumping to such conclusions! :blink:

 

I think it is very possible given that the ZX-1 will have a stronger "S-Master Pro" module.   I used to have the DX100 and like it a great deal.  However, on an easy to drive IEMs such as JH13pro...I didn't find the DX100 to be that much better than my F807 playing 16bit 44.1khz file. Of course, the DX100 is considerably better at driving harder loads & sounding better with hi-rez materials compared to my F807 & Z1070.  Have you checked out the "S-Master Pro" design document before ?  If you have not, you should as digital amp module is more efficient and required less space.

 

Let's not talk about the AK, they are just overpriced.

post #208 of 6034
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimouille View Post


Well I do not see any difference apart from the memory.

 

 

I can't read Japanese, but the chart seems to say that the F887 has FM radio, and the ZX1 doesn't (that suits me just fine)

 

Also, that chart appears to state 15mw+15mw for the ZX1, and 10mw+10mw for the F887

 

 

 

I was looking at the forthcoming X5, and disappointed that they dropped the intended power output.

 

Just mulling this over, the past few minutes, and it occurs to me that they ZX1 is so remarkably compact that it might be viable for me to strap it to a (compact) amp and still have it in my pocket. I don't know. I'd much much rather not have to have a seperate amp. Decisions, decisions...


Edited by Mython - 9/25/13 at 9:45am
post #209 of 6034
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mython View Post

Apple are currently charging:


* $100 for a 32gb increase on their iPod Touch.
* $100 for a measly 16gb increase on their iPhone 5c.
* $200 for a 48gb increase on the iPhone 5s


That's truly disgraceful. One can buy a 32gb SD card for $20 (or $37 for a Sony 64gb SD). Admittedly, onboard memory will be faster; I don't dispute that, but still. They're taking liberties.

Agreed, and worse still IMHO, for three years now Apple has charged the same $100 to go from 32GB to 64GB in an iPhone, while actual memory prices have been dropping constantly. (Not that other manufacturers are any better, Apple data is just easier to find.) So yes, I concur, the pricing is mostly driven by reasons of product range structure, and by what companies think they can get away with.

The ZX1 seems fairly appealing to me, though I am a bit sceptical of its use of Android (not so very happy with it on my phone). An eventual price beyond $760 is a bunch of cash of course, but I suspect a big player like Sony is capable of delivering more for the dollar than the boutique manufacturers, whose DAPs are often even more expensive.
post #210 of 6034
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mython View Post


I can't read Japanese, but the chart seems to say that the F887 has FM radio, and the ZX1 doesn't (that suits me just fine)

Also, that chart appears to state 15mw+15mw for the ZX1, and 10mw+10mw for the F887
What does change in mw entail?
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