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The iBasso DX50 Thread - Latest firmware: 1.5.0 - Page 683

post #10231 of 15024
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratinox View Post


You've missed the point.

Music players don't need amplifiers. Headphones need amplifiers. When the question is something like, "does DX50 need an amplifier?" then the answer is always "no". It does not.

When the question is something like, "do my headphones need an amplifier?" then the answer falls under what I've written: either they do for some technical reason or they don't. Everything else is stack envy. This includes wanting -- that is, the desire rather than the requirement -- some perceived improvement in sound quality which may or may not actually exist for a given set of headphones and ears and brain and listening environment, and especially when an inexpensive widget will do just as well.

Simple as that.

I think the person asking the question wasn't the most clear, and you didn't pick up on the implied question.  Obviously, one doesn't NEED an external amp to listen to headphones out of any DAP, unless it does not have a headphone out.  I do believe, what was meant by the question, is that will there be a sonic benefit by using an external amp versus the built in headphone amp.  My reply to that is yes, if you own a high quality external amplifier, in most cases it will produce a (subjectively, by myself and many others) better sound than when using the built-in headphone amp.  This goes both with IEM's and full size cans.  My SE846's sound better from my RSA amps than they do from my DAP's headphone out.  Now, how much better the sound gets, once again, is subjective, but it's enough of a difference for me to stack my shadow and dx50 when moving about.  Everyone's experience will be different, and your setup will only be as good as your weakest link.  But the discussions around this forum are decidedly leaning towards extracting the best possible sound out of the gear we posses (and will possess; just admit it, no one is ever done buying gear), is it not?

post #10232 of 15024
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratinox View Post


"Poor" is a matter of opinion. But assuming that the amplifier suffers from a genuine design flaw as opposed to simply being relatively inexpensive then there is a clear technical fault to be rectified.

 

I don't understand the point you're trying to make here.  The sound quality of any audio device, in any situation, is a matter of opinion.  So what? 

 

Are you trying to claim that all headphone amplifiers sound the same, other than those with a "genuine design flaw"?  If that were the case, then there would be no reason for anyone to use any DAP other than a Sansa Clip.

 

If you connect different headphone amplifiers to a true line out, most of them will sound different from one another.  And yes, some will sound better than others.  

post #10233 of 15024

ok but lets be honest guys how much is that "better " sound worth it. i assume the iem it self and the DAP play a a bigger role in the sound signature. a good amp around 600 bucks is that worth the additional sound improve ment?

post #10234 of 15024
Quote:
Originally Posted by jj69 View Post

I don't understand the point you're trying to make here.  The sound quality of any audio device, in any situation, is a matter of opinion.  So what? 

Are you trying to claim that all headphone amplifiers sound the same, other than those with a "genuine design flaw"?  If that were the case, then there would be no reason for anyone to use any DAP other than a Sansa Clip.

If you connect different headphone amplifiers to a true line out, most of them will sound different from one another.  And yes, some will sound better than others.  

I agree, the only person who has to like the sq of your gear is you. If a dap sounds better amped than not then by all means use an amp. Perception is reality when it comes to a highly subjective topic such as audio sound quality. There is little or no scientific explanation for much of the gear we consider influences our sound quality. If a new cable sounds better to you, then it does, placebo or not. I think having gear envy is a pre-requisite to becoming an audiophile, isn't it? Healthy discussions such as this are always a little fun though!

Cheers,
Shawn
post #10235 of 15024
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScreenKiller View Post

ok but lets be honest guys how much is that "better " sound worth it. i assume the iem it self and the DAP play a a bigger role in the sound signature. a good amp around 600 bucks is that worth the additional sound improve ment?

I don't think you can quantify the sonic improvement with or without amp. If it's worth it is up to an individual. slapping a $600 amp on DX50 may not worth it to you or sound crazy but it could easily make sense to someone else.

It does not mean you are right or wrong. Same goes with others.

Amps are not created equal. Design/implementation difference is enough to make a sound difference.
post #10236 of 15024
Regarding hiss, using an impedance adapter does change the tuning of your headphone smily_headphones1.gif
post #10237 of 15024
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScreenKiller View Post

ok. to be honest thus far i share ratinox opinion. amping is a for headset. why would a low impedance v3's (16ohm) need a amp. if you buy a decent "DAP" i assume there is a good DAC in it. but also a decent amp. otherwise i don't really think you can call it a DAP. for me DAP is a all in one. why does anyone want to stack another AMP on top of his DAP? i have read that the C5 does help against hiss. but shouldn't the low gain option on the DX50 help against hiss?

when we are talking about hard to drive headphones ok a amp is needed to fully unleash a headsets potential. But a low impedance IEM i wonder.


OFC i'm kinda newbie never owned a Amp just saying what a read around on the web. rectify and correct me educate me thats what forum is for.

We all want things to be simple as they should aren't we? But you'll be surprise that most of the time those low impedance (usually BA/multi-BA) are the ones needing an external amp when used with these high-end DAPs.

It's counter-intuitive, I agree but most supposedly high-end DAPs runs into design limitations/flaw when it comes to the amp section. Most notably is the output impedance of the DAP. It will defintely cause shifts in frequency response on these low-impedance phones. Another reason, since a DAP has limited space there are some design tradeoffs which may increase noise or introduce distortion/coloration. Again, the low impedance/high-sensitivity phones are more vulnerable.

Not to mention, not all amps are designed to be neutral or flat when amplifying a signal. This contributes to the amp's so called "signature"

I also like a DAP which I don't have to slap an external amp with. However, I have not found one yet.
post #10238 of 15024
I'm gonna lump a bunch of these replies together.
Quote:
Originally Posted by revolutionz View Post

I do believe, what was meant by the question, is that will there be a sonic benefit by using an external amp versus the built in headphone amp.  My reply to that is yes, if you own a high quality external amplifier, in most cases it will produce a (subjectively, by myself and many others) better sound than when using the built-in headphone amp.

Again, this is of no benefit to to the player.

Again, this may or may not be of benefit to a particular set of headphones and ears and brain and listening environment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jj69 View Post

Are you trying to claim that all headphone amplifiers sound the same, other than those with a "genuine design flaw"? If that were the case, then there would be no reason for anyone to use any DAP other than a Sansa Clip.

A better question to ask here is, "what specific design flaw in DX50's amp requires an outboard amplifier to correct?" My answer is: there is no such flaw that I've been able to detect.

If you happen to like the sound of a particular amplifier with your particular headphones more than DX50's then that's fine. Some headphones really do need a separate amp just to drive them to comfortable volume levels. But don't say that your amp of choice is "better". It isn't better. It's your choice, and it should not be used to pressure anyone into buying an amplifier they neither need nor want.

And hey! don't knock the Clip line. It sounds at least as good as most iThings for a fraction of the price.

Quote:
Originally Posted by headwhacker View Post

It's counter-intuitive, I agree but most supposedly high-end DAPs runs into design limitations/flaw when it comes to the amp section. Most notably is the output impedance of the DAP. It will defintely cause shifts in frequency response on these low-impedance phones. Another reason, since a DAP has limited space there are some design tradeoffs which may increase noise or introduce distortion/coloration. Again, the low impedance/high-sensitivity phones are more vulnerable.

I say that these are not design flaws in the DAPs. Every amplifier introduces noise. EVERY amp, from the most stupidly expensive tube rig to the cheapest solid state op-amp. It's the nature of the animal. The real flaws are in the decision making process behind selecting and pairing stupidly sensitive headphones with DX50's amplifier and then complaining about that noise and other distortion, and then using that to justify buying expensive amplifiers that wouldn't be necessary with less sensitive headphones that are a better match for DX50's amp.
post #10239 of 15024

Ratinox, a Honda does not have to be inherently flawed - actually they are very good - to fail to perform to the standard of a Mercedes Benz.

 

You can continue to make the same argument over and over again that unless the DX50 amp is inherently flawed, a higher quality external amp of better design with parts an order of magnitude more expensive will not outperform it with all high quality headphones. (I admit that one might not hear the difference with cheap earbuds but I have not tested this.) The argument will continue to be wrong no matter how logical you try to make it sound. No offence intended truly.

post #10240 of 15024
Quote:
Originally Posted by cooperpwc View Post

The argument will continue to be wrong no matter how logical you try to make it sound. No offence intended truly.

Except that isn't the argument that I've been making. I've never, not once, written that a better amp won't sound better. The argument is the NECESSITY of that amplifier vs. the DESIRE to have a better amplifier. Your Honda vs. Mercedes analogy is, in fact, fairly apt. Nobody buys a Mercedes S-Class for basic transportation. They buy the S-Class for the status, the prestige it represents. How is throwing $1000 worth of custom in-ears plus another $600 on an amplifier at a $250 music player any different? In my opinion the answer is "not at all".
post #10241 of 15024

Well we agree now on the necessity part. I hope that I had made that clear.

 

Then you lose me again by failing to acknowledge that someone might buy the Mercedes also because it drives better and is more pleasurable to drive. You are on your way in your reasoning but you keep missing the conclusion.

 

My view. I leave it at that.

post #10242 of 15024

Personally I find the internal amp section on the DX50 to be lacking. Very clean and great soundstage but lacking texture and thickness (= authority) in a major way. It gives me the impression of listening to a line signal or a weak amp section that doesn't offer a lot of control (similar to what I have heard from ColorFly C3 or AK100). I pretty much use it with a portable amp all the time as I think that is where DX50 is at its best. Occasionally I do listen to DX50 by itself, but I always choose a thicker and fuller sounding headphone / IEM to compensate. That's just me.

post #10243 of 15024
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratinox View Post

I say that these are not design flaws in the DAPs. Every amplifier introduces noise. EVERY amp, from the most stupidly expensive tube rig to the cheapest solid state op-amp. It's the nature of the animal. The real flaws are in the decision making process behind selecting and pairing stupidly sensitive headphones with DX50's amplifier and then complaining about that noise and other distortion, and then using that to justify buying expensive amplifiers that wouldn't be necessary with less sensitive headphones that are a better match for DX50's amp.

 



It just happened the best sounding iems (at least the ones I tried) are mostly high sensitivity, low impedance. Pairing DX50 with an amp is still in my opinion is the best compromise to get the best SQ on the go, considering size and price as well. I agree you don't need to spend $600 amp but I think you completely miss the point why DX50 could sound better with an external amp using high sensitivity phones.
post #10244 of 15024
May I suggest this amp for the DX50. It is a slight upgrade over the C5 paired with the DX50, but its form factor, 6.3mm jack and bass boost option (located on the inside of the amp) restrict it from being better than the C5 in all ways.
post #10245 of 15024
What happened to your DXC-50 smily_headphones1.gif
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