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A DIY dac better than asus xonar dx? - Page 2

post #16 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomb View Post

Actually, holland makes a good point - perhaps the simplest DAC to DIY is the SkeletonDAC.  Yes, I sell it.  I'm not shilling, but rather essentially confirming that the SkeletonDAC is the current implementation of the AlienDAC.  The BantamDAC was next after the Alien - basically an AlienDAC shrunk down with TPS regulators instead of REG's, but using the same PCM2702 chip.  As time went on, the PCM2702 became NRND from TI - Not Recommended for New Designs.  Because of this, the price started climbing for the chip so that it equaled the former cost of the entire kit.

 

Cobaltmute was kind enough to design a low-cost follow-on DAC based on the PCM2704/5, TI's stated replacements for the PCM2702.

 

Before you say the specs aren't nearly as good as the PCM2702, I'm not sure I ever saw anyone achieve the specs that TI quoted on the PCM2702.  I think there may have been some funny business going on in the early days of testing DAC chips. wink.gif  For whatever reason, the Bantam/Skeleton seem to be fully equal to the Alien, but of the three DACs today - only the SkeletonDAC is still available.


I try but some words I can not understand (my english is very bad) :(

I do not quite understand what is the best dac ... All these dac's names are better than my asus xonar dx? and would have a better result with my amp o2?

post #17 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by glunteer View Post


I try but some words I can not understand (my english is very bad) :(

I do not quite understand what is the best dac ... All these dac's names are better than my asus xonar dx? and would have a better result with my amp o2?

Yes they will be better and also they will work well with your amp as well. 

post #18 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zashoomin View Post

Yes they will be better and also they will work well with your amp as well. 

so...

 

until now was quoted the dacs: pupDAC, Gamma 1, Gamma 2 (not like because they do not sell the complete kit), SkeletonDAC, AlienDAC, BantamDAC.

These dacs mentioned are equivalent to the ODAC?

How is the output impedance of these dacs? because I know the asus xonar dx is very high output impedance and it is not recommended using the o2 (which has very low output)

post #19 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by glunteer View Post

so...

 

until now was quoted the dacs: pupDAC, Gamma 1, Gamma 2 (not like because they do not sell the complete kit), SkeletonDAC, AlienDAC, BantamDAC.

These dacs mentioned are equivalent to the ODAC?

How is the output impedance of these dacs? because I know the asus xonar dx is very high output impedance and it is not recommended using the o2 (which has very low output)

none of these will be equivalent to the ODAC because that is a different dac but will sound just as good if not better and will work wonderfully with the O2.  the pupDAC and Skeleton dac you can you buy the kit at Beezar.com.  The Gamma 1 and AlienDAC you can buy at Glassjaraudio.com and the Gamma 2 is an upgrade to gamma 1 so you will have to buy additional parts and AMB.org and Mouser.com.  Lastly I don't know if you can find a PCB for the BantamDAC.

 

Oh and also consider the GrubDAC sold at Beezar

post #20 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by glunteer View Post

so...

 

until now was quoted the dacs: pupDAC, Gamma 1, Gamma 2 (not like because they do not sell the complete kit), SkeletonDAC, AlienDAC, BantamDAC.

These dacs mentioned are equivalent to the ODAC?

How is the output impedance of these dacs? because I know the asus xonar dx is very high output impedance and it is not recommended using the o2 (which has very low output)

 

Your information is not correct.  DAC output impedance has nothing to do with amp output impedance.  You can use the xonar dx with the O2.  The impedances do not prevent connection.  The other DAC impedances are lower than the Xonar DX, which presumably has a 100 ohm output impedance.

 

If you're going to DIY, you should be able to decide, for yourself, on what you want to tackle.  Or not, and just buy the ODAC.  If you're worried about the cost, then just buy the ODAC and be done with it.

 

If you want a kit, go to Beezar and buy the cheapest DAC kit.  The purpose of that is to learn and get comfortable doing SMD soldering.  After that you can build something else.  We can discuss it at that point.  You can even build the ODAC if you really want to.  You seem to have a thing for the ODAC.

post #21 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zashoomin View Post

none of these will be equivalent to the ODAC because that is a different dac but will sound just as good if not better and will work wonderfully with the O2.  the pupDAC and Skeleton dac you can you buy the kit at Beezar.com.  The Gamma 1 and AlienDAC you can buy at Glassjaraudio.com and the Gamma 2 is an upgrade to gamma 1 so you will have to buy additional parts and AMB.org and Mouser.com.  Lastly I don't know if you can find a PCB for the BantamDAC.

 

Oh and also consider the GrubDAC sold at Beezar

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by holland View Post

 

Your information is not correct.  DAC output impedance has nothing to do with amp output impedance.  You can use the xonar dx with the O2.  The impedances do not prevent connection.  The other DAC impedances are lower than the Xonar DX, which presumably has a 100 ohm output impedance.

 

If you're going to DIY, you should be able to decide, for yourself, on what you want to tackle.  Or not, and just buy the ODAC.  If you're worried about the cost, then just buy the ODAC and be done with it.

 

If you want a kit, go to Beezar and buy the cheapest DAC kit.  The purpose of that is to learn and get comfortable doing SMD soldering.  After that you can build something else.  We can discuss it at that point.  You can even build the ODAC if you really want to.  You seem to have a thing for the ODAC.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zashoomin View Post

none of these will be equivalent to the ODAC because that is a different dac but will sound just as good if not better and will work wonderfully with the O2.  the pupDAC and Skeleton dac you can you buy the kit at Beezar.com.  The Gamma 1 and AlienDAC you can buy at Glassjaraudio.com and the Gamma 2 is an upgrade to gamma 1 so you will have to buy additional parts and AMB.org and Mouser.com.  Lastly I don't know if you can find a PCB for the BantamDAC.

 

Oh and also consider the GrubDAC sold at Beezar

 

I did not think the BantamDAC to sell beezar.com, I'm almost buying skeletonDAC I want to start with something cheaper and I gradually assembling something more expensive

Quote:
Originally Posted by holland View Post

 

Your information is not correct.  DAC output impedance has nothing to do with amp output impedance.  You can use the xonar dx with the O2.  The impedances do not prevent connection.  The other DAC impedances are lower than the Xonar DX, which presumably has a 100 ohm output impedance.

 

If you're going to DIY, you should be able to decide, for yourself, on what you want to tackle.  Or not, and just buy the ODAC.  If you're worried about the cost, then just buy the ODAC and be done with it.

 

If you want a kit, go to Beezar and buy the cheapest DAC kit.  The purpose of that is to learn and get comfortable doing SMD soldering.  After that you can build something else.  We can discuss it at that point.  You can even build the ODAC if you really want to.  You seem to have a thing for the ODAC.


Relax holland... I'm just wondering about each dac mentioned to have a general idea and can choose the best for me ...

I apologize for the ignorance and for not having correct information, thanks for clearing my doubts ...

I mentioned the ODAC for you as they know that I need dac ... why would I buy an ODAC but I think it will be more fun to ride a ...

 

 

edit: About usb cable, I need to build one? or buy anyone?


Edited by glunteer - 8/29/13 at 3:42pm
post #22 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by glunteer View Post

so...

 

until now was quoted the dacs: pupDAC, Gamma 1, Gamma 2 (not like because they do not sell the complete kit), SkeletonDAC, AlienDAC, BantamDAC.

These dacs mentioned are equivalent to the ODAC?

How is the output impedance of these dacs? because I know the asus xonar dx is very high output impedance and it is not recommended using the o2 (which has very low output)

Wrong.  A complete kit - including a specially anodized case with laser-etching - is sold on Beezar.com for the PupDAC.  Or, you can buy the short kit without the case.  In either case, there are plenty of kit options from Beezar for the pupDAC. 

 

P.S. That said, the pupDAC is inappropriate for a first try at a building a DAC.  You need more experience before attempting one, unless you are fully versed in SMD soldering, etc.


Edited by tomb - 8/29/13 at 5:14pm
post #23 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomb View Post

Wrong.  A complete kit - including a specially anodized case with laser-etching - is sold on Beezar.com for the PupDAC.  Or, you can buy the short kit without the case.  In either case, there are plenty of kit options from Beezar for the pupDAC. 

 

P.S. That said, the pupDAC is inappropriate for a first try at a building a DAC.  You need more experience before attempting one, unless you are fully versed in SMD soldering, etc.


now I'm in doubt between grubDAC and SkeletonDAC ... could talk about the differences between them?

post #24 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by glunteer View Post

Relax holland... I'm just wondering about each dac mentioned to have a general idea and can choose the best for me ...

I am relaxed.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by glunteer View Post


now I'm in doubt between grubDAC and SkeletonDAC ... could talk about the differences between them?

 

Even better.  Start there, and read about it.

 

http://www.diyforums.org/SkeletonDAC/SkeletonDACoverview.php

http://www.diyforums.org/GrubDAC/GrubDACoverview.php

post #25 of 45
Thread Starter 

I'd better buy that (Ebay DAC) ? Uses the same chip SkeletonDAC and is cheaper, why?

post #26 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by glunteer View Post

I'd better buy that (Ebay DAC) ? Uses the same chip SkeletonDAC and is cheaper, why?

There's no voltage regulation whatsoever on that DAC.  Besides that, it appears to be mainly marketed as a SPIDF convertor.

 

Just an FYI, but the cheapest price for the PCM2704 right now on Mouser is $6.07 (just a reminder, but it's an American-owned product and Mouser is just about the pre-eminent competitor for this stuff in the USA).  The thing you posted sells for $9.10.  What kind of value do you think exists for the rest of the parts on that thing - including the PCB?

 

You figure it out.


Edited by tomb - 8/30/13 at 5:21pm
post #27 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomb View Post

There's no voltage regulation whatsoever on that DAC.  Besides that, it appears to be mainly marketed as a SPIDF convertor.

 

Just an FYI, but the cheapest price for the PCM2704 right now on Mouser is $6.07 (just a reminder, but it's an American-owned product and Mouser is just about the pre-eminent competitor for this stuff in the USA).  The thing you posted sells for $9.10.  What kind of value do you think exists for the rest of the parts on that thing - including the PCB?

 

You figure it out.


got it.

 

which the audible difference between grubdac and skeletondac?

 

thanks ;)

post #28 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by glunteer View Post


got it.

 

which the audible difference between grubdac and skeletondac?

 

thanks ;)

What's the price difference?

 

Seriously ... just what factors would I use to set price and what reason would I use to sell one DAC at a lower price than another?

 

Sorry, but I get these questions a lot and I just don't understand why the simplest logic on the part of a consumer is not applied.mad.gif

post #29 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomb View Post

What's the price difference?

 

Seriously ... just what factors would I use to set price and what reason would I use to sell one DAC at a lower price than another?

 

Sorry, but I get these questions a lot and I just don't understand why the simplest logic on the part of a consumer is not applied.mad.gif

Only see a Beats... more expensive than many headphones and does not justify the price.

 

But back on topic, I need to know the product they will buy.

 

As it is my first diy DAC still have many doubts, I respect your opinion but I like to listen to various opinions to learn to draw a conclusion

 

and sorry for my english frown.gif

post #30 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomb View Post
* Obviously, I sell a couple of the ones mentioned ... but even so, why the heck would any MOT be offering them to the DIY community if they weren't better than a sound card?

 

Because people still buy them anyway, and have no way to objectively determine which one is better ?

 

By the way, I doubt that "Any of the ones supported on Head-Fi would be better, hands down" than the Xonar. Here are some test results for the Xonar D1, which is the same card, but with a PCI interface. Check also the Sound Science forum where a number of other tests (ABX and difference extraction) feature this card among others. A PCM270x based DAC will measure worse even with a "perfect" implementation that achieves the datasheet performance of the chip. Also, the first suggested ODAC is more of a sidegrade with similar specs. Now of course it is possible for an internal sound card to have interference problems in some computers, but if that is not the case, then improving on it with a DIY DAC is not that easy. And even if you do succeeed, the difference would be difficult to hear at best under controlled conditions (try some of my ABX tests if you do not believe). Nevertheless, DIY can be worth it simply for the fun, so I am not suggesting the OP should not bother trying it at all. Also, when you spend so much time building something, and are proud of the end result, it will quite likely sound better subjectively. normal_smile%20.gif


Edited by stv014 - 9/1/13 at 8:27am
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