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The Stax Thread III - Page 28

post #406 of 3507
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgep View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eric65 View Post
 

 

Following a rigorous testing procedure blind not to be swayed by his subjectivity?

 



So I take it you will be posting this comment every time someone privides a listening impression?

Haha seriously.  It went from being something pretty cool to being his way of dismissing any opinion he doesn't want to see.

post #407 of 3507
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgep View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eric65 View Post
 

 

Following a rigorous testing procedure blind not to be swayed by his subjectivity?

 



So I take it you will be posting this comment every time someone privides a listening impression?

 

No, of course,

This is just an observation that can be done to put the ordeal our subjectivity.

Do you get the same results with a blind test ?
That is the question. :)

 

Eric

post #408 of 3507
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgep View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eric65 View Post
 

 

Following a rigorous testing procedure blind not to be swayed by his subjectivity?

 



So I take it you will be posting this comment every time someone privides a listening impression?

My thoughts exactly....

post #409 of 3507
Quote:
Originally Posted by eric65 View Post

 

Do you get the same results with a blind test ?
That is the question. " src="http://files.head-fi.org/images/smilies/smily_headphones1.gif">

 

Eric

 



Sorry, now you are asking me? I didn't even provide any listening impressions...
post #410 of 3507

I think your diction was too biased so it had to be called into question

post #411 of 3507
Quote:
Originally Posted by eric65 View Post
 

 

Following a rigorous testing procedure blind not to be swayed by his subjectivity?

 

I felt the differences were sufficient that my thoughts would not be swayed. The problems that I had with the 727II (while I still liked it very much) were not there with the KGSS such as better clarity and detail. 

 

But like others have prosed, maybe it should be a new Head-Fi posting rule that a thorough D.O.E. is performed prior, signed off by a Six Sigma Black Belt and then run to ensure full statistically confidence. ;)


Edited by MacedonianHero - 9/19/13 at 7:47pm
post #412 of 3507
Quote:
Originally Posted by eric65 View Post
 

 

Good idea!

 

What double-blind randomized protocol you propose to compare, in practice, on four amplifiers with Stax SR 009, on five different music tracks, with two testers and six different audio criteria , in less than 4 hours?

 

I am not the one publishing the report. If you don't know how to do it. Well....

A non blinded study does not differ much from a subjective opinion. That's all.

 

Ask these guys how they did it.

Hope you speak Spanish.

http://www.matrixhifi.com/marco_directazul.htm


Edited by gilency - 9/20/13 at 7:07am
post #413 of 3507

Double blind testing was also banned here for years, especially with the cable crazies. 

 

For my money DBT has more issues than benefits as it assumes you can take in all the information in short burst and then remember it well enough to compare.  I much prefer to drop any component into a familiar system and spend a few hours with the entire library on random to reveal strengths and weaknesses.  Level matching is critical but testing different volume levels is just as important. 

post #414 of 3507

Thats exactly what I do Spritzer .Change a component -say a BJT  and then spend an hour or so judging not so much the difference but whether it improves the fidelity of the music signal.Can you imagine building an amp and then every test when you change something is a double blind test? > I dont know any engineers that do that. 

post #415 of 3507

more detailed discussion should be done in the Sound Science forum - but the basic definitions of psychoacoustic science established "objective" listening test conditions shouldn't be confused, misrepresented here

 

[edit: quote added for clarity as to the object of the response]

Quote:

For my money DBT has more issues than benefits as it assumes you can take in all the information in short burst and then remember it well enough to compare.

 

you're conflating DBT with ABX and the empirical ABX human listening tests results that some sonic differences are better discriminated with short back and forth switching - even when the short comparison "forced choice" ABX causes subjects some mental stress - "I don't know" feelings they still can show statistical resolving power in their scores without reaching conscious "certainty" about which they are hearing

 

longer listening can be done with ABX, level matching, Blinding - it may well be the case that several listening time scales are required to discriminate different aspects of music reproduction

 

level matching doesn't preclude changing the volume - only that both systems are compared at matched volumes, whatever the volume setting is at that time - practically some volume controls won't track accurately enough so you need an acceptable source volume control

 

and the required volume matching is well below conscious "they sound the same loudness" threshold - you have to measure - to 0.1 dB SPL, ~1% voltage drive matching at the headphone


Edited by jcx - 9/20/13 at 10:32am
post #416 of 3507

Excuse me! This isnt sound "science" You know full well I cant  post on it. This is exactly my argument to the Moderators people keep following me round the site trying to instill their "religious science" on me or to start an argument Now you are saying anybody designing and building an amp and make changes to it -be it move components around or try different types of components to see NOT JUST the technical spec. on test equipment but actually listens to it and I quote my mentor John Lindslay Hood  who did just that and was criticised by people like you for being SUBJECTIVE. And all his work  is mostly "not talked about" We I make no compromises  I listen subjectively like any human being. So away back to "sound science" and slag me off there. I wont be joining you there. I repeat this isnt -SOUND SCIENCE   

post #417 of 3507

you just beat me to tagging spritzer's post - I was still composing, never saw your reply before pressing the submit button

 

I also do add to posts when I don't think it derails the sequence of the thread - but I did just add which line of spritzer's that prompted my post


Edited by jcx - 9/20/13 at 10:34am
post #418 of 3507

So what you are saying you are criticizing Spritzer-quote  = "For my money DBT has more issues than benefits ---etc--- To which I "heartily " agree . And you want to argue with him in sound science But I am barred from sound science because I argue with you and others---YES--- VERY FAIR INDEED. What next a diplomats job at the UN. I like a level playing field  and it seems Democracy  is sadly lacking here. I look forward to Spritzers reply to your criticism. AS his whole logic and engineering thinking seems to be like mine and thats why I admire him.He does not have "blinkered thinking" But has expansive creative thinking. 

post #419 of 3507

I am not arguing with his comment - just correcting his use of terminology - extrapolating from his comment that he really meant ABX test, and the specific result for recommended short time switching testing

 

"DBT" makes no sense in the context of his comment except as a shortcut "loaded phrase" for a subset of audiophiles

Quote:

 

Loaded words and phrases have strong emotional implications and involve strongly positive or negative reactions beyond their literal meaning.

but "DBT" is really only such a loaded phrase for this community - Double Blind Test protocol explanation can be found in any perceptual psychology textbook

 

 

 

please drop this topic if you don't want to constructively participate in Sound Science - these posts will strain the mod's patience in the general fourms


Edited by jcx - 9/20/13 at 4:12pm
post #420 of 3507
Thread Starter 

This is the Stax thread. The last two pages are an example of why DBT discussion is banned in the main forums. Please get back on topic from the next post as I don't want to have to start locking people out of the thread. 

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