Head-Fi.org › Forums › Summit-Fi (High-End Audio) › High-end Audio Forum › The Stax Thread III
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

The Stax Thread III - Page 158

post #2356 of 4415
Great post Complin!

I agree 100%. I am demoing the 007/009/717/BHSE today so will report back - exciting.

My 'hope' is the 009 sounds so good with my 717 amp I can just live with that and not have to sell my wife to get the BHSE.

If however, the 009 and BHSE is a game changer, and is to another level totally with the 009 and 717, them I am screwed!

Keeping the 007s and getting the BHSE is more money than swopping out the 007s for the 009s and using my existing 717.

My front end is a None Oversampling Audio Note DAC tubed, so will probably sound a bit warmer the David's K-01?

That may tamper the 009s treble lift or sudden increase in detail. I can live with more detail as long as it doesn't head towards
the Lambda Signature direction of treble edge. That will come down to my DAC I reckon. Pity I couldn't bring my DAC but it is in
Spain and 3000 miles in the car would have shook it o bits....

The world without dealers I guess. Still a BHSE with dealer network would be 50% more money no doubt.
post #2357 of 4415
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrostar59 View Post

Great post Complin!

I agree 100%. I am demoing the 007/009/717/BHSE today so will report back - exciting.

My 'hope' is the 009 sounds so good with my 717 amp I can just live with that and not have to sell my wife to get the BHSE.

If however, the 009 and BHSE is a game changer, and is to another level totally with the 009 and 717, them I am screwed!

Keeping the 007s and getting the BHSE is more money than swopping out the 007s for the 009s and using my existing 717.

My front end is a None Oversampling Audio Note DAC tubed, so will probably sound a bit warmer the David's K-01?

That may tamper the 009s treble lift or sudden increase in detail. I can live with more detail as long as it doesn't head towards
the Lambda Signature direction of treble edge. That will come down to my DAC I reckon. Pity I couldn't bring my DAC but it is in
Spain and 3000 miles in the car would have shook it o bits....

The world without dealers I guess. Still a BHSE with dealer network would be 50% more money no doubt.

If the Lambda Signature's have a treble edge, I would suggest you also listen to some other DAC's at least. A tubed DAC should be providing a smooth and detailed sound. Never in a million years would I say that the Signatures have a treble edge, so something is 'not right' in your system IMHO.

 

And I would do that before making a firm decision on the 717 or BHSE.

 

Just thought I'd mention it before you sold the wife.

post #2358 of 4415

I had the Lambda Signatures for quite some time and still have no idea what this treble edge is all about  :confused:

post #2359 of 4415
Sorry, let re rephrase that. My Lambda Nova Signatures had a lower treble lift, thus emphasised that area of treble,
thus any recording that had extra energy in that area got even more emphasised.

I have found in speaker settings and headphone systems that digital (RedBook) can in many cases have a
slight but to me obvious treble edge, or shall we say cold lower treble quality.

I don't hear that in my original turntable system with the same amps and speakers and headphones.
I went through 8 or so decent DACs before I got my first None over Sampling DAC and finally was happy
with RedBook replay.

This subject is wide, and controversial and will rub many up the wrong way, so I won't go into it further here,
just to say, before anyone fires back in anger, I would strongly recommend they listen to a good
NOS DAC first.

Going back to the Lambda models, pretty much everyone concedes they have thin bass and emphasised
lower treble to their sound signature. They have however great imaging and fast typical response of E-Stats,
thus why I had them for years. IMHO it was also one of the reasons Stax were going bust, as they weren't getting
the sales mainstream to survive. The 007 was the answer I guess. And it is a great phone, though that also has
issues (needs great amp).

Sorry, long answer, hope this clears up my post which is of course my opinion, and why we have this forum right?
post #2360 of 4415
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrostar59 View Post

Sorry, let re rephrase that. My Lambda Nova Signatures had a lower treble lift, thus emphasised that area of treble,
thus any recording that had extra energy in that area got even more emphasised.

I have found in speaker settings and headphone systems that digital (RedBook) can in many cases have a
slight but to me obvious treble edge, or shall we say cold lower treble quality.

I don't hear that in my original turntable system with the same amps and speakers and headphones.
I went through 8 or so decent DACs before I got my first None over Sampling DAC and finally was happy
with RedBook replay.

This subject is wide, and controversial and will rub many up the wrong way, so I won't go into it further here,
just to say, before anyone fires back in anger, I would strongly recommend they listen to a good
NOS DAC first.

Going back to the Lambda models, pretty much everyone concedes they have thin bass and emphasised
lower treble to their sound signature. They have however great imaging and fast typical response of E-Stats,
thus why I had them for years. IMHO it was also one of the reasons Stax were going bust, as they weren't getting
the sales mainstream to survive. The 007 was the answer I guess. And it is a great phone, though that also has
issues (needs great amp).

Sorry, long answer, hope this clears up my post which is of course my opinion, and why we have this forum right?


Ok. I disagree that they have thin bass, it's just not a bass that will make your head rumble. But all the frequencies are there.

And one more thing, Lambda Nova Signature != Lambda Signature ;)

post #2361 of 4415

Yeah... going to go out on a limb here.  To my tin ears the Lambda Nova Signatures do not sound treble etched or treble emphasized or weak in the bass; hope your pair is OK!  Are your pads original or modern?  I can tell you that finding the right amp for LNS has been somewhat a unexpected experience.  Let's just say I didn't like them on the KGSS or 717 when compared to the 323s despite the former two amps having high marks (this is just in the case of the LNS not o2 for example).  I'm still trying to figure that one out!

post #2362 of 4415
Quote:
Originally Posted by AManAnd88Keys View Post
 


Ok. I disagree that they have thin bass, it's just not a bass that will make your head rumble. But all the frequencies are there.

And one more thing, Lambda Nova Signature != Lambda Signature ;)

your not saying that the LNS and LS are the same headphone are you?  cause they aren't.

post #2363 of 4415

The != most definitely means is not the same as ;)

post #2364 of 4415
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrostar59 View Post

My 'hope' is the 009 sounds so good with my 717 amp I can just live with that and not have to sell my wife to get the BHSE.
 

Hmm, wife or BHSE? Tricky call....

post #2365 of 4415
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAttorney View Post

Hmm, wife or BHSE? Tricky call....
I'm getting married on Saturday, so 'unfortunately' I'll have to pass on that one :-D
post #2366 of 4415

HI 

  I AM FROM ISRAEL

 

NEED HALP

 

I WHANT TO BAY  SR 009+SRM007TII / SRM727II  

  OR

 SR007 MKII+SRM007TII  ONLY AS SET  

 

THIS  WHAT WE CAN BAY HER  

 

I HAVE 

 

HD 800/  T1

LUXMAN P-1U  AND  BCL

 

I WHANT OPEN DEEP WIDE AS HD800 VERY WELL BASS AND MID TO HER ALL THAT IS IN THE MUSIC

 

I LISEN TO  MOZART OPERAS  AND MORE SYENPHONY  MAHLER BETHOVEN .........

 

HOW IS THE BEST FOR THAT KIND  OF MUSIC 

 

THANK YOU


Edited by SONYES - 5/14/14 at 1:14pm
post #2367 of 4415
My mini review of the 007s and 009s with the SRM-717 and the BHSE with 4 x Mullard tubes and 4 x PSVane Tubes.

The demo session was for 4 intensive hours today at David's place. Source was his K-01 as CD spinner and using
its built in DAC. Settings on the K-01 were:

1. Filters off
2. Oversampling off
3. RCA connection to 717
4. XLR connection to BHSE
5. 1 hour plus warm up before starting 4 hour session
6. Music was AIFFs extracted using XLD to a CD at 44.1.
7. 11 tracks used of various music types (Armin Van Buuren, Alex M.o.r.p.h., Rammstien, Beyonce, Pink Floyd Wall Remastered)

007 v 009 with the SRM-717
First up, we tried the 007s with the 717 amp, and then A/B compared the same tracks immediately to the 009s with the 717.
It became obvious that the 009s were more transparent, livelier in the top registers and also wider sound stage. The bass was about
the same level and weight compared to the midrange levels, but was tighter and less one note. Not that the bass on the 007s is so one note, it was simply the 009s gave more information and was more musical / realistic.

It was also obvious the 009s were much easier to drive as we had the volume at 3 on the 717 volume pot and 4-5 with the 007s.
The sound signature of the 009s appeared bright only going from the 007 straight through to the 009s. If we listened to the 009s for a few tracks right through, this perception changed, and I was left with hearing a balanced sound with lots of detail and fast transients, no distortion or edge, just pure music. this was getting exciting. The sound was really pretty damb good from the 717, and the slight loss of focus or loosening in the bass with the 007s had vanished, even at high listening levels.

I would put the jump from my 007s to the 009s with the 717 amp as a leap of 30% in quality.

007 with the BHSE and Stock Mullard tubes
Next I listened to the same tracks on the 007s through the BHSE. The 007s came more alive, as though they had a fully charged battery all of a sudden. Everything was better and faster, the sound stage was wider, and the bass was under full control at last. Also the midrange became more prominent and smoother, and vocals sounded real rather than 'hi-fi' in nature. It was to me, the treble that really smoothed out, lost and edge or cold character, and no longer held the sound back. I think the treble quality is the part of
the sound signature I struggled with in the past, and clearly the BHSE has that sorted. Effectively play the music and forget the gear.

I would put the jump from my 007s with the 717 amp to the 007s with the BHSE as a leap of 20% in quality.

009s with the BHSE and PSVane Tubes
Next David put the PSVane tubes in, rebalanced them, let them warm up for 45 mins, then played the same tracks with the 009s.
Here the 009s went again to the next level. They were more alive and controlled than driven by the 717, but the jump in that respect was not as big as the 007s, which were struggling driven by the 717. In the 009s case, the sound was cleaner, warmer, even wider sound stage and generally a more sophisticated sound. Everything just sounded cleaner and more realistic / organic. An acoustic guitar sounded like an acoustic guitar instead of a CD recording. It is difficult to explain, but basically I found I was analysing less and listening to the tracks right through instead, forgetting I was supposed to be doing a demo.

I would put the jump from my 007s with the BHSE to the 009s with the BHSE as a leap of 25% in quality.

And for my final analysis I would put the jump from my 007s with the 717 to the 009s with the BHSE as a leap of 45% in quality.

So, after this I have decided the best plan for me, and my budgets and my system, is to get the 009s and run them for a while with the 717 amp. That gave me a bigger jump then keeping the 007s and getting a BHSE. It is also a bit cheaper going that route.

Then possibly at some later date, and money allowing, I may get a BHSE.

The advantage of a 717 (solid state amp) is I would leave it on during the afternoon - evening period when I have to take the dogs out. I know it sounds trivial but that would no doubt lead to more use than saving tubes or having 2 switch ons a day for the BHSE.

Which brings me full circle back to the 007s. I do love those headphones, and can see the potential with a great am driving them. But for me, even with that, the general sound signature of the 007s with it's dropped treble response (shown in the past by measurements by Inner Fidelity) was still holding back the BHSE.

I can see how the 007s will work really well with as brighter front end, or for a customer who likes a warmer / darker sound. It is a very polite headphone and has a great midrange IMHO. The bass of my Mk2.5s is a bit emphasised maybe, further enhanced by the shelved mid-upper treble. I just fell in love with the detail and wide band sound of the 009s. It was just more of everything. I know that can be a blessing or a curse, but with careful system building (DAC & Transport/Computer)
it can sound truly fantastic.

It's a bit like do you want to listen to the concert in the 10th row (007s) or the 3rd row (009s). Both are correct, but mine is row 3 I feel.....

David is a great Head-Fier, clearly a dedicated enthusiast, so thanks a bunch for letting me play with his BHSE and 009s.
post #2368 of 4415

Great to have your impressions like this astro.  So your 007 was mk2.5 and you didn't get to try mk1 or mk2?

 

I find it most telling:

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by astrostar59 View Post

I would put the jump from my 007s with the BHSE to the 009s with the BHSE as a leap of 25% in quality.

And for my final analysis I would put the jump from my 007s with the 717 to the 009s with the BHSE as a leap of 45% in quality.

So, after this I have decided the best plan for me, and my budgets and my system, is to get the 009s and run them for a while with the 717 amp. That gave me a bigger jump then keeping the 007s and getting a BHSE. It is also a bit cheaper going that route.

 

So what I am reading is that it's more efficient to go 009 + 717 than it is to go 007 + BHSE... also that while both 007 and 009 benefitted greatly with the BHSE, the 007 improved more than the 009 improved hence the 717 should do a great job until funds permit...

 

I think similar things have been said in the past but still great to know.

post #2369 of 4415
Quote:
So what I am reading is that it's more efficient to go 009 + 717 than it is to go 007 + BHSE... also that while both 007 and 009 benefitted greatly with the BHSE, the 007 improved more than the 009 improved hence the 717 should do a great job until funds permit...

Yes, that is how I realised it to my ears. There are 2 big areas where the 009s improved on the 717 over the 007s aside from extra detail:
Bass control and dynamics. Both I believe were because the 009s are easier to drive. So an 009 might also sound pretty damb good even with a Stax tube amp
like the 007t?

If the 009s didn't exist, I would have been very happy with the 007 + BHSE system.
The trouble is, the 009 is SUCH as good headphone, it rather upsets the apple cart as we English say. The signature is quite different to the 007.
It's more of everything, but also closer to the source as well. I guess it's a bit of a shock for a long term 007 user.

I am thinking, because it is quite different to the 007s, that is the reason some find it bright. There is no longer a veil or layer between you and the source,
as with the 007s. This veil does mask limitations upstream I think. It is complicated, as the 009s still sounds good with my stand in CD player here until I get
back to Spain. It's the treble quality that needs to be top notch before feeding to the 009s. If you have that sorted (clean source) you will be in heaven with the 009s.

Which makes me think a mid range system might be better with the 007s and a top range system better with the 009s (based on starting from scratch).
Possibly a BHSE with the 007s is like putting a bigger engine in a small car. I goes faster but is on the limit?

Interesting subject.
post #2370 of 4415
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrostar59 View Post
Which brings me full circle back to the 007s. I do love those headphones, and can see the potential with a great am driving them. But for me, even with that, the general sound signature of the 007s with it's dropped treble response (shown in the past by measurements by Inner Fidelity) was still holding back the BHSE.

 

Thanks for the review. I have had exactly the same reaction when comparing Stax headphones (007, 007mk2.5, 007mk1, 507): the 009 was head and shoulders above all of them in the exact way you describe. However, I am not sure any more the gap is that big. The new pads on my 007 mk1 made wonders, especially with the treble of the 007, and the soundstage width. It is not the slightestly tiny bit rolled off any more, but it's not etched either in any way, and it's better defined treble than the 009, which has a kind of light haze quality to it with Stax amps (perhaps cleared by the BHSE).

 

I may have an opportunity to compare with a 009 in 3 weeks time, then I could tell more. I also struggle with the same thing about the 009: I've always felt the 007 could sound better, and they do now, but the 009 is still out there, and how good potential _that_one_ might have? My wife is more tolerant with my hi-fi bug (and my headphones obsession is nothing compared to my speakers obsession), but she would say we should rather use the 009 money to go spend some time together in a nice place :). And she's probably right, as always, hadn't it been for the 009... :)

 

But if you are interested in getting the treble right with 007, it only costs you a little DIY by changing the pad foam to another one cut out from the active carbon filter (available in hardware stores as filter set for e.g. Vallox ventilation machines), and use it without the spring, and optionally without the cloth grill (much easier to assemble, too). For improved sound stage, follow the full mod described in http://www.head-fi.org/t/677809/the-stax-thread-iii/2310#post_10536905, which makes the inner opening bigger.

 

Since you are also in EU, I could even send you my current pads if you promise I'll get them back :), to try them out and do the comparison with the 009. Looks like I can trust your judgement as well as mine. The question is not whether is it becoming better than the 009, since it will be still different, but how close does it get.

 

I think it was Asr how said earlier as a compliment to the TH900 that the 007 mk1 is about 5% better than a well driven TH900 (both in stock form), but having both (with modified ear pads) I can say the difference is more than that, and although IMHO the modded TH900 is currently the best dynamic headphone, but is still bested by my 007 especially in the treble and sound stage, exactly where you find the stock 007 lacking.


Edited by zolkis - 5/15/14 at 3:20am
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: High-end Audio Forum
Head-Fi.org › Forums › Summit-Fi (High-End Audio) › High-end Audio Forum › The Stax Thread III