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The Stax Thread III - Page 153

post #2281 of 4592
Quote:
Originally Posted by troymadison View Post
 


Did you like the LNS better?

I like my LNS even better after I fitted the 507 pads. Although the foam has evaporated and become totally transparent - the drivers are loose but there are no disturbing side effects.

post #2282 of 4592
Quote:
Originally Posted by David1961 View Post

I agree.
I wouldn't write off the experiences of others unless you've had personal experience with the pairing. When the HD 800 is modified (properly), the result has audibly reduced treble response that has been confirmed by measurement. This is subjective listening corroborated by objective measurement, whereas the availability of the latter in Stax pairings has been relatively lacking.

Given the SR-009 was designed with the SRM-T1 and SRM-727, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if it had more treble energy with the KGSSHV than modded HD 800s.

I don't doubt the SR-007 being at least tested with the SRM-717 given how comparatively well it does with the KG designs (besides being bundled with the 717 as a system). Conjecture though.
post #2283 of 4592

The 009's are know to be "brighter" than the previous Stax range But not as bright as the HD800. Personally I don't find the mods so far that really fix the issue. With both headphones being so revealing its not clear to me that its always the headphone at fault, often I find its the source material(recording) or DAC.

I have both and the 800's are by far the pickiest headphone I have ever owned in 40 years in this hobby.  

 

I too am a frequent live music goer but we are fooling ourselves if we think that many modern recordings approach anything like a live performance. What with modern production techniques, close mic-ing of instruments and the engineers interpretation he lays down for us to hear later then ...............   

I suggest you give this a watch http://www.head-fi.org/t/661545/rmaf-2012-just-how-absolute-is-recorded-sound

 

Personally I don't find any of the KG amplifiers bright, quite the contrary although I do know some manufacturers voice their amplifiers in a particular direction which I feel is the wrong approach, it should be a neutral device as far as possible, unless you opt for tube or op amp rolling!   

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by zerodeefex View Post
 

Full disclosure: I currently use modded HD800s out of a 2A3 MKIV.

 

However, I'd like to second what 3X0 is saying. I've spent a bit of time with the 009s on the KGSSHV and the treble really turned me off. I actually lived with the 007 mk1 + KGSSHV for a while and then sold the whole kit n kaboodle. During my period of ownership I had a chance to demo the 009s extensively several times and I walked away every time preferring the SR-007 MK1s.

 

My reference point is multiple series annually at Davies Symphony Hall for years and years. I actually got to hear the amazing MTT/SFS Mahler cycle in person and I use those recordings quite a bit in my evaluation of gear because even after more than a decade, I still remember the experience vividly.


Edited by complin - 5/7/14 at 8:29am
post #2284 of 4592
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgs9200m View Post
 

 

All I need is my stock 007t/ii amp with my RCA cleartops and some Cardas Golden Cross interconnects and some old warmish-sounding Shunyata power cables and the sound is remarkable, unlike any other headphone I have heard in terms of 

resolution, insight, and speed, all without fatigue or pain. The bass is wonderful, reasonably deep and with nice impact and the whole frequency spectrum is very well balanced from top to bottom. And if I could do this with my amp, I think the other amps are worthy of more thorough experimentation.

 

(I have moved on to some great Stealth interconnects and a very good power conditioner, but these were more icing on the cake, and not truly necessary.)

 

Hi there,

 

Can you share more on the parenthetical "icing on the cake" part please?

 

I'm currently down the rabbit hole, looking up, and optimizing my streamer==>DAC==>BHSE==>009 system, with psvane and stock tubes.

I have 'meh' cables right now (belkin usb, low end audioquest balanced interconnects) and just took the PSAudio power conditioner out of the loop to get back to a baseline.

post #2285 of 4592
Quote:
Originally Posted by complin View Post

I think n3rdling also summarized it rather well that perceived brightness might actually be the product of neutral amplification, in which case it might be argued that the KG amps are objectively closer to ideal.

The amplifier's interaction with the load might affect the perceived tonal balance. This might explain why I prefer the tonal balance of the SR-009 with "lesser" amps. Hard to say without measurements (amp+load, measured at transducer) to corroborate.

You bring up an excellent point with regards to recordings. From venue to our ears we're playing two rounds of telephone, and it's possible some pairings might sound closer to reality (i. e. closing the gap to the actual performance at the venue) for some styles and quality grades of recordings than others.
Edited by 3X0 - 5/7/14 at 8:08am
post #2286 of 4592
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3X0 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by David1961 View Post

I agree.
I wouldn't write off the experiences of others unless you've had personal experience with the pairing. When the HD 800 is modified (properly), the result has audibly reduced treble response that has been confirmed by measurement. This is subjective listening corroborated by objective measurement, whereas the availability of the latter in Stax pairings has been relatively lacking.

Given the SR-009 was designed with the SRM-T1 and SRM-727, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if it had more treble energy with the KGSSHV than modded HD 800s.

I don't doubt the SR-007 being at least tested with the SRM-717 given how comparatively well it does with the KG designs (besides being bundled with the 717 as a system). Conjecture though.

I guess I shouldn't have been agreeing because I've never heard a modified HD-800, in fact I have only heard the HD-800 for a short time, I've also never heard the 009's driven by the KGSSHV, but some posts I've read are saying both headphones sound bright which I suppose was the reason I wrote " I agree".
I think in future I'll just stick to comments about the headphones / amps I've had a lot of listening time with, my apologies.
post #2287 of 4592

Actually the "loading" you refer to IS an issue with dynamics as they are sensitive to the output impedance of the amplifier and to some extent the resistance of the cable.

However this is a non issue with a properly designed electrostatics amplifier as the headphones present a very different capacitive load, represented by the electrostatic headphone's stators and its cable.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3X0 View Post


The amplifier's interaction with the load might affect the perceived tonal balance. This might explain why I prefer the tonal balance of the SR-009 with "lesser" amps. Hard to say without measurements (amp+load, measured at transducer) to corroborate.
 
post #2288 of 4592
Quote:

Originally Posted by n3rdling View Post

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zerodeefex View Post

 

I currently use modded HD800s

Quote:
009s on the KGSSHV and the treble really turned me off.

 

Something doesn't add up.

 

It's a matter of word selection and personal meaning attributed to those words. The modded HD800 (the latest mods) do a lot to tame the treble, but it's still a slightly bright headphone if we look at the treble in relation to the midrange. However, the HD800 isn't as "lean" as the SR-007 if we consider the mid/high bass region in relation to the mids. Measurements not withstanding, and assuming a good seal, the SR-009 appears to lose energy, just slightly - a few db, as we move down to 20Hz. Not really a big deal.

 

I never thought the SR-009 and KGSSHV (or T2DIY) combo was "bright" with the sources and recodings I used. However, I can certainly see people finding the SR-009/KGSSHV overly analytical, too etched, or too edgy (which is separate from brightness) depending upon source and recordings used. Combined with the fact that the SR-009 doesn't have the HD800's broad mid/high bass bump, all these factors could certainly contribute to people finding the KGSSHV setup "bright". As a saide note, the combo that I found painfully etched and strident was the SR-009 + Headamp BHSE (not to be confused with n3rdlings BH) + Oppo (SABRE) regardless of recording. (the BHSE has always seemed "brighter" to the KGSS/HV builds I have heard)

 

There's not much current choice anyways. Just pick your poison. KGSS/HV, LL2, WES, SR727. Or get the Aristaeus if you can get Justin to build one for you. Whatever strokes folks weiners.


Edited by purrin - 5/7/14 at 8:55am
post #2289 of 4592
Quote:
Originally Posted by complin View Post
 

Yes. The hypothesis frequently posited is that the Stax-branded amplifiers (besides the 717, 727, and maybe the 323S [?]) tend to be less consistent performers in driving a "challenging" load (the SR-007Mk1 is frequently the load brought into example).

 

If this is true and the SR-009 was evaluated in development with a Stax amplifier that couldn't handle the load, it could have some interesting implications for the performance of the unit on amplifiers that can vis-a-vis the performance intentions of the engineers behind it...

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by purrin View Post

It's a matter of word selection and personal meaning attributed to those words.

 

I never thought the SR-009 and KGSSHV (or T2DIY) combo was "bright" with the sources and recodings I used. However, I can certainly see people finding the SR-009/KGSSHV overly analytical, too etched, or too edgy (which is separate from brightness) depending upon source and recordings used. Combined with the fact that the SR-009 doesn't have the HD800's broad mid/high bass bump, all these factors could certainly contribute to people finding the KGSSHV setup "bright". As a saide note, the combo that I found painfully etched and strident was the SR-009 + Headamp BHSE (not to be confused with n3rdlings BH) + Oppo (SABRE) regardless of recording. (the BHSE has always seemed "brighter" to the KGSS/HV builds I have heard)

That's a fair assessment. Translating perceived perceptions into relatable auditory lexicon will continue to be a pain point. Audio linguistics can be challenging when one man's musical is another man's mellow, et al.

post #2290 of 4592

 

Working (and sounding) beautifully! :D

post #2291 of 4592
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3X0 View Post



I wouldn't write off the experiences of others unless you've had personal experience with the pairing. When the HD 800 is modified (properly), the result has audibly reduced treble response that has been confirmed by measurement. This is subjective listening corroborated by objective measurement, whereas the availability of the latter in Stax pairings has been relatively lacking.



Given the SR-009 was designed with the SRM-T1 and SRM-727, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if it had more treble energy with the KGSSHV than modded HD 800s.



I don't doubt the SR-007 being at least tested with the SRM-717 given how comparatively well it does with the KG designs (besides being bundled with the 717 as a system). Conjecture though.

 



Actually, I don't think it is clear, at least from the interview, that Stax "voice" their headphones to any particular amp. The Stax folk appeared to be saying that they make their designs in isolation to be the best possible HP or amp they could possibly make from a technical perspective, then they test them - some fail and some pass.

Also, the inference from the interview is the when the Omega was designed, the T1 woulld also have been the test amp (not the T2) - which is interesting considering most Omega users would not choose the T1 as a good amp for the phones.
post #2292 of 4592
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgep View Post
Actually, I don't think it is clear, at least from the interview, that Stax "voice" their headphones to any particular amp. The Stax folk appeared to be saying that they make their designs in isolation to be the best possible HP or amp they could possibly make from a technical perspective, then they test them - some fail and some pass.

Also, the inference from the interview is the when the Omega was designed, the T1 woulld also have been the test amp (not the T2) - which is interesting considering most Omega users would not choose the T1 as a good amp for the phones.

That's the snafu. If they're trying to make their headphones the best in isolation from a technical perspective, they have to test them. I would question the notion that aspects such as the stator design,spacing, diaphragm material, et cetera were conjectured by technical hypotheses or experiential guesswork without proofs.

 

I don't mean they are "voiced" in a strict sense, but certainly evaluation of their design decisions must derive from pairing what they have available as a system.

 

I also wouldn't discount the possibility of some hush-hush or lost-in-translation elements from the interview. They are a weird company.

post #2293 of 4592
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3X0 View Post

That's the snafu. If they're trying to make their headphones the best in isolation from a technical perspective, they have to test them. I would question the notion that aspects such as the stator design,spacing, diaphragm material, et cetera were conjectured by technical hypotheses or experiential guesswork without proofs.

 

I don't mean they are "voiced" in a strict sense, but certainly evaluation of their design decisions must derive from pairing what they have available as a system.

 

I also wouldn't discount the possibility of some hush-hush or lost-in-translation elements from the interview. They are a weird company.

 



I expect that the "proofs" occur when the headphone is plugged in to the amp, prior to that the design can only be based on their technical expertise and experience. Maybe its time for a follow-up interview - volunteers?
post #2294 of 4592
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgep View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3X0 View Post
 

That's the snafu. If they're trying to make their headphones the best in isolation from a technical perspective, they have to test them. I would question the notion that aspects such as the stator design,spacing, diaphragm material, et cetera were conjectured by technical hypotheses or experiential guesswork without proofs.

 

I don't mean they are "voiced" in a strict sense, but certainly evaluation of their design decisions must derive from pairing what they have available as a system.

 

I also wouldn't discount the possibility of some hush-hush or lost-in-translation elements from the interview. They are a weird company.

 



I expect that the "proofs" occur when the headphone is plugged in to the amp, prior to that the design can only be based on their technical expertise and experience. Maybe its time for a follow-up interview - volunteers?

 

I think there's what can be said during an interview and whatever happens behind closed doors. We were not allowed to take a pick into the laboratory, Spritzer was suggesting Stax was naturally using many kind of amps, including non-production stuff but that's not what they told us.

 

I think the answer is probably somewhere in the middle: Stax is certainly keen on producing earspeakers that are easier to drive / sound good out of current production amps. Stax is also always on the look out for improved performance, they did start to work on a successor to the T2 for instance (although seemed to be on hold as of last time we talked).

 

I will talk to Stax people this week end during the headphone festival, will report here as usual, but don't expect much news I am afraid...

post #2295 of 4592

Though you're saying there isn't much to expect from this forthcoming talk, you're creating a lot of expectations by writing about it :ph34r:

 

Ali

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