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Do audiophiles "like" music? - Page 22  

post #316 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Claritas View Post

 

I looked at it. Thanks. But what's the tl;dr version?

"Comparing the Blue Hawaii to my all solid-state current domain amplifier, they really are more the same than they are different, but in general, the differences are the differences between tubes and solid state, such as a much smoother high frequency response"

Edit: this is a direct quote from the above link, not my words.
Edited by ferday - 2/28/14 at 12:13pm
post #317 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferday View Post
 

 

"Comparing the Blue Hawaii to my all solid-state current domain amplifier, they really are more the same than they are different, but in general, the differences are the differences between tubes and solid state, such as a much smoother high frequency response"

 

Thanks again. So the idea is that they're less colored / more neutral than most tube amps but still a little warm (?)

post #318 of 345

they can certainly be designed to be pretty neutral (to the point of inaudibility IMO), but tubes are tubes.  if ultimate neutrality is the end goal, tubes are not on the list. 

 

in the interest of staying on topic for this thread, i do agree that many "audiophiles" are far more interested in the gear than the music...but i don't find that a bad thing, it's their hobby and i have a lot of respect for that.  if one is chasing the "sound of the gear" then there are only so many recordings that are suitable for that purpose...IMO and YMMV

post #319 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferday View Post
 

they can certainly be designed to be pretty neutral (to the point of inaudibility IMO), but tubes are tubes.  if ultimate neutrality is the end goal, tubes are not on the list. 

 

in the interest of staying on topic for this thread, i do agree that many "audiophiles" are far more interested in the gear than the music...but i don't find that a bad thing, it's their hobby and i have a lot of respect for that.  if one is chasing the "sound of the gear" then there are only so many recordings that are suitable for that purpose...IMO and YMMV


Two excellent statements. The first one about tubes pretty much sums things up with respect to tubes and neutrality. The second statement about audiophiles, gear and acceptable recordings goes a long in explaining why there are only a handful of "audiophile approved" recordings. However it does not explain why these "audiophile approved" recordings so often contain mediocre music.

post #320 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferday View Post
 

 

"Comparing the Blue Hawaii to my all solid-state current domain amplifier, they really are more the same than they are different, but in general, the differences are the differences between tubes and solid state, such as a much smoother high frequency response"


Which HP are you using with your BH? What's your other SS amp for your stats? I think the question is which one sounds more neutral?

post #321 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfnutz View Post


Which HP are you using with your BH? What's your other SS amp for your stats? I think the question is which one sounds more neutral?

Sorry for the miscommunication, I don't own a BH (and will never), I was directly quoting the link (above) for Claritas as a tl;dr
post #322 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by elmoe View Post

Precisely, any notion of neutrality when speaking about a tube "anything" is just ridiculous. The whole point of tubes is to color the sound. If you think your tube amp sounds neutral, then I truly feel sorry for the amount of money you invested in it...

As for discussing artists, I couldn't care less. The point is to compare how a recording sounds from one piece of gear to another, not to discuss the satanic messages when playing Stairway To Heaven backwards rolleyes.gif  

Did you know that a single tube is more linear than a single transistor?
I.e. A single tube is a better audio amplifier than a single transistor.
post #323 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post


Did you know that a single tube is more linear than a single transistor?
I.e. A single tube is a better audio amplifier than a single transistor.

 

But it isn't less neutral :)

 

You seem to think I am a "tube hater". My favorite piece of gear is still my Singlepower MPX3 tube preamp/headphone amp. It's not neutral, but there's nothing wrong with that.

post #324 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by elmoe View Post

I'm no expert but there is nothing there to show that the tubes will not color the sound...

How would you do this with a pure transistor amp?

I'll give you a hint:
You would need a transformer.
post #325 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post


How would you do this with a pure transistor amp?

I'll give you a hint:
You would need a transformer.

 

Point being what exactly?

post #326 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by elmoe View Post

But it isn't less neutral smily_headphones1.gif

You seem to think I am a "tube hater". My favorite piece of gear is still my Singlepower MPX3 tube preamp/headphone amp. It's not neutral, but there's nothing wrong with that.

You're not a tube hater, fair enough.
I have owned various pieces of SS and tube gear thru the years and have liked most of those pieces for their own strengths and weaknesses.

If the a single tube is more linear than a single transistor then it is more neutral.
post #327 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by elmoe View Post

Point being what exactly?

An alternative topology to a Tube and Transister ES amp would be a Transistor and Transformer amp.

And now you can argue that transformers are non-linear.

The ugly truth is:
tubes are non-linear
transistors are non-linear
transformers are non-linear

Life (and electronic design) is a set of compromises).
Pick your compromises and live with the results.

Read the designer's article again.
He was trying to design a DC coupled ES amp.
Looks like he succeeded.
The power supply is +/-400 Vdc.
Arguably easier to do with tubes than with transistors.
Edited by Chris J - 3/1/14 at 7:09am
post #328 of 345

That's not exactly right though, because tubes cause more audible distortion than transistors from what I understand, meaning that the sound is colored more, and thus much less neutral. Even-order distortion from tubes is easier to hear but also less harsh than the transistor's odd-order distortion, however with a proper amp design it is clear that distortion from tubes is much more audible than transistors', thus linearity does not necessarily equal neutrality.

 

So while a 1vs1 comparison may in fact show tubes to be more neutral, it will never be so in a finished built amp design. Local loops or negative feedback well integrated in a solid state amp will give you a far less audible distortion than any tube amp design.


Edited by elmoe - 3/1/14 at 6:47am
post #329 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by elmoe View Post
 

That's not exactly right though, because tubes cause more audible distortion than transistors from what I understand, meaning that the sound is colored more, and thus much less neutral. Even-order distortion from tubes is easier to hear but also less harsh than the transistor's odd-order distortion, however with a proper amp design it is clear that distortion from tubes is much more audible than transistors', thus linearity does not necessarily equal neutrality.

 

So while a 1vs1 comparison may in fact show tubes to be more neutral, it will never be so in a finished built amp design. Local loops or negative feedback well integrated in a solid state amp will give you a far less audible distortion than any tube amp design.

 

You need to look up the definition of linearity as related to tubes and transistirs.

A more linear device will have less THD and IM distortion.

Even order distortion vs. odd order distortion has a lot to do with amplifier topology.

You could design a tube am with low even and odd order distortion if you wanted to.

 

Tube circuits are typically simple circuits.

It is a universal truth that it is far easier to build an extremely simple audio amplifying circuit with tubes than with transistors.

Arguably, you can build a pretty good sounding vacuum tube pre-amp using two triodes (vacuum tube elements).

The simplest good sounding transistor circuit I have ever seen used 5 transistors, it was a Threshhold pre-amp.

 

You could argue that you can design a good sounding circuit with ONE Op Amp, but now you are taking about an integrated circuit with 30-50 transistors.

 

The rest of your post is basically true, but also (like my original comment on tubes) a rather one dimensional, unqualified view of transistors.

You also can build an extremely linear amp with a complex tube design using local feedback and global feedback.

Someone would probably listen to it and say "it sounds like solid state".

 

Probably more accurate to say you can build an extremely linear amp far cheaper with transistors than with tubes.

So may as well use transistors.

It has more to do with money than it has to do with tubes being inherently bad amplifying devices.

They are not.

post #330 of 345

ooops, read my post #327, computer problems....I had to repost. 

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