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Do audiophiles "like" music? - Page 13  

post #181 of 345

There are all these different perspectives, and they are all valid. The person creating this thread is suggesting that audiophiles don't like music, because from his point of view he doesn't understand some of the choices they make. But that's the limitation of his point of view. As we have seen many people who spend $20,000 on a headphone system are indeed music-lovers, soaking in a rich variety of the elements of music, taking it in on all levels (head, heart, and gut). For the pleasure I get from my $20,000 system it's worth it. It's my most prized possession and it gives me transcendent pleasure. But live music is even better. I just happen to be an introvert who likes evenings spent alone and I have a collector's instinct. Everyone has their own way of loving music, and this is mine. And don't put mine down or say I'm not a music lover, that's just rude. I won't put you down. If you are transported to heaven by a clock radio, I won't dispute it. I honor and respect your way of enjoying music.

 

If it's pitches and harmonies you like, go for it! If you can hear those fine in a PortaPro that's all you need. You just saved $1000's. If you groove on instrumental timbre, find a system that represents the beauty of timbre well enough to please you, and go for it.

 

If you turn up your nose at $100 stereos, no judgment here. I don't see that as a pathology. It's just one valid perspective. It's a way of honoring the music. You wouldn't want to see your wife dressed in trashy clothes, right? Do you love your wife less if you put a high value on seeing her in well-styled clothes that complement her beauty? No, you don't love your wife less. Maybe you love her more, by respecting her too much to see her look trashy.

 

Let me take a step back here for a second. Are there pathologies? Yes, there are a few people who get caught up in equipment and don't develop much appreciation of music. I do believe I've seen that happen. But that's the minority. The OP here has not discovered anything like that--he is just trying to describe this world through his own limited perspective and so he makes wrong assumptions about it.

post #182 of 345
Quote:
 As we have seen many people who spend $20,000 on a headphone system are indeed music-lovers, soaking in a rich variety of the elements of music, taking it in on all levels (head, heart, and gut).

Yes no problem here, except you don't need 20000$ system to call your self music lover. And you can soak in a rich variety of the elements of music, taking it in on all levels with iPod and mid-priced cans.

 

 

Quote:

 Do you love your wife less if you put a high value on seeing her in well-styled clothes that complement her beauty? No, you don't love your wife less. Maybe you love her more, by respecting her too much to see her look trashy.

Uhm? Is there an argument here? Trashy? Beauty? The eyes of beholder?

 

 

Quote:

 Are there pathologies?

Maybe I have missed a few posts, but I didn't catch anyone saying that tinkering with equipment is pathology. If you are referring to me calling it audicholism ... it was a joke :) Please don't take me to serious.

 

I would use word illusion. I think you are deluded if you think 350$ electrical cable will tangibly enhance your enjoyment. And please don't take that as rude remark. This kind of delusions are nothing special ... I have them, you have them, most of us have them. Maybe zen master doesn't, and I really doubt he needs expensive headphones for enlightenment ;)

 

I just think life can be simpler without unnecessary complications like comparing 15 different types of cables which don't make any difference. But if you think you will benefit from similar actions ... well go for it.

 

Heh, thinking of it ... not much benefit in scribbling on forums either.

post #183 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by torta View Post
 

No it is not. You interfere with your enjoyment. Stereo is just a machine ... you put in on the shelf, you press the button ... and then ... is the machines fault because you are not happy? My advice would be ... relax and listen, and be happy that you are able to.

 

Yes, it is the fault of the machine. How do I know? I replaced it with a better machine and enjoyed the music more. BTW, I am a most relaxed person even without your advice, but thanks ;).

 

For me not ... the more relaxed I am the more I can enjoy music. But emotional response is almost always there. I can be also irritated with music I enjoyed a few days back.

 

Good for you. Personally, I don't listen to music that irritates me if I can help it, but whatever...

 

Why? I don't care if it is live concert or studio recording? Why again limit yourself?

 

I am not limiting myself. I listen to both. I never said I didn't.

 

You see ... It is your notion that things will get better with better equipment which interferes with relaxing/enjoying.

 

It's not a notion. It is a fact for me that better playback provides more musical enjoyment. If you prefer poorer sound, go for it.

 

No I am not. I have pointed that out myself. Mainly for the illustration of the placebo effect ... that is: notions which can affect judgments. If you read latest psychology researches you can be very disappointed if you think you are consciously able to have sober judgments about reality. We are never sober, our judgments are constantly affected with emotional processes and thought patterns. I think a lot of audiophiles just think that enjoy music more because of the system changes. It is a way to cope with wasted time and money. And I don't doubt they enjoy music ... but not because of their systems. Ordinary people enjoy music in-spite their ****ty rig, audiophiles enjoy music in-spite all the audio-troubles they constructed in their minds.

 

Mostly inverse psychobabble.

 

Yes there are ... really. The answer is in previous paragraph. Maybe I can clarify word reviewers ... Listeners would be more proper, but that includes professional gear reviewers.

 

Parlor games don't interest me.

 

No, it is not. It is proven as far the scientific studies go. True, you can find trained people who can distinguish different equipment, 320k mp3 to 192 mp3 ... and similar. But that is not the point of above statement.

 

OK...

 

Bingo! You see it? You see it??

 

Yes I do. Some people care more about sound quality than others. Hardly eureka stuff....

 

Because is ... well different experience as whole. For me is way to socialize. I also like to hear music in different environment, and to feel the collective energy of audience and performers. Sound is also included, of course ... but for me enjoyment from live performance comes from ... khm, live energy (setting, people, connection with performers. I don want to sound to new agey so I wont dive further into this ;). The things your "better" stereo will never be able to reproduce. And it is a scientifically proven fact.

 

Why not sound new agey? Nothing wrong with that, especially where music is concerned. And I would never deny the social benefits of going to live concerts. But we were talking about sound and a live concert would have to be considered a musical baseline of sorts for sound quality. The closer my home system comes to the concert hall experience, the more I enjoy the music at home.

 

Hahahaha! You are a funny chap nevertheless :)  More intense? Screaming? Fainting? Poor grandma! Well she is deceased now, maybe for the better, or she could loose her mind listening to my spendor speakers.

 

Well, The Rite of Spring, induced a near riot, and people screamed and fainted at Beatles concerts, so those kinds of reactions are possible! But I had a friend who was a singer who already had a good system when I met her. When I asked her why she bought it, she said she had always enjoyed listening to music, but found a good system increased her enjoyment. This is what I am refering to. It is, sadly, too late for your Grandma, but that's why my motto is "Life's too short to listen to bad stereos" :etysmile: .

 

Hey, why do you have excellent speakers like Spendors anyway? A mistuned table radio should give just as much pleasure, no?

 

Kevin


Edited by k3oxkjo - 10/11/13 at 11:30am
post #184 of 345
Quote:
 Hey, why do you have excellent speakers like Spendors anyway? A mistuned table radio should give just as much pleasure, no?

Well it did, back in the days. Probably the most enjoyment I experienced was listening to music with my mono player. I was about 8 years old and those were the my Beatles days. And I did faint. But not the way girls did ... I just fell to sleep.

Spendors are remnant of my own audio-crusade ;)

post #185 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by torta View Post

Well it did, back in the days. Probably the most enjoyment I experienced was listening to music with my mono player. I was about 8 years old and those were the my Beatles days. And I did faint. But not the way girls did ... I just fell to sleep.
Spendors are remnant of my own audio-crusade wink.gif

Ahhhh, I get it, you are a reformed addict! It's all clear now.
post #186 of 345
Not so reformed my friend, not yet.
Sniff? Do you smell that?

Smells like good ol ad hominem.
Tc tc, you naughty boy.
post #187 of 345

I wouldn't be an audiophile if I didn't love music. There is a double edged sword at play which is, that the more analytical I am, the less I enjoy the music -- in the way that I did when I was a child. I think analysis, judgement, critical faculties diminish our ability to empathize . Music is best (and perhaps only) enjoyed from an empathetic state of mind -- analysis has been, in my experience, a false attempt to justify enjoyment through 'logical understanding'. For a while I was a critical listener. I'm content with my system to the point of not really caring about the audiophile aspect of things anymore. And with all the knowledge I've accumulated on the subject over the years, I think I'm at a point where, were my system to burn to the ground I wouldn't make efforts to recreate it. I'd be perfectly satisfied with some quality single driver IEMs, electrostatic headphones or some studio monitors of some sort. 

 

Other ramblings, this hobby definitely furthered my understanding of quality versus crap. For example, my discovery of electrostatic transducers (and understanding how they work) I quickly isolated the important factors at play and I was able to come up with a cost effective solution for great music reproduction.

 

Concerning music itself, for me this hobby has reinforced the fact that music is noise. I think given this reinforcement, I've been able to better find good, interesting, and challenging music, rather than following trends and suggestions. Similar to this, I think the biggest issue I've seen is that lots of people with nice rigs only play "good" recordings to accompany their "good" setups. Diana Krall is the personification of this situation. I can't name a single song by her but I'm certain in my very limited experience of her oeuvre, that it's utter crap -- relative to other, more thorough musical efforts.

 

Going a full circle, being a judgmental snob is generally something I'm pretty against though I'm not sweating labeling Diana Krall's music garbage in this instance. My moral is don't be critical. The more empathetic you can be with everything, the happier you'll be with everything.


Edited by milezone - 10/16/13 at 1:21pm
post #188 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by dosprompt View Post

 

BONUS QUESTION - Is there one album that you would willingly sacrifice your entire system for if the alternative was never listening to that album again?  If so what is it?

 

Not one album but one artist - Ludovico Einaudi.

 

Absolute Genius. 

post #189 of 345

This is an interesting question and one that I have often considered. On one hand, music is the most important aspect of the audiophile hobby. Without music, the pursuit of audio perfection would be null and void. However, I will submit that many, including myself, have at one time lost sight of the music. It is easy to succumb to the affliction that is upgraditis. Suddenly, the focus shifts from music to gear. Despite the frequency at which upgraditis affects the audiophile community, I still believe that music remains at the forefront. 

 

If audiophiles didn't like music, they would find other pursuits. Why else would you sit in front of a HiFi or with headphones strapped to one's head, doing nothing but listening to music (not sure if everyone in the head-fi community does this, but it is certainly common in the HiFi world)

post #190 of 345

I think it is possible to listen both analytically and with the heart at the same time. I love good equipment because it makes the music more enjoyable, and the reason I know it's enjoyable is because of the feelings it stirs in my heart and soul. But I also have some awareness of the technical qualities of the sound that lead to this enjoyment. For example, I'm aware as I listen to a system how good the microdynamic shading is. All at the same time, I can analyze that quality, know how it impacts the music, and actually feel the impact of the music.

 

It might help me that I'm an amateur musician and spent some time as a music major. I find that the more I study and practice music, the greater the amount of detail that I can absorb all at once as I listen.

 

Some people might question my priorities, as I have spent an absurd amount of money on my system, more than I've spent on CDs and music downloads. For that money I could have attended a lot of live concerts. But this is just my way of expressing my love for music. I'm an introvert so I like to spend evenings alone listening to my system, and I have a collector's instinct. I enjoy having a collection of custom equipment as well as a collection of CDs that I really, really love.

 

And in response to an earlier question, I would not give up my system for a SINGLE recording, but certainly if my choice was between hanging onto my favorite CDs and hanging on to my system, I would have no trouble with the decision--I would switch to an iPod and earbuds (or whatever) in order to keep listening to my favorite music.

 

Mike

post #191 of 345

Almost all of my collection is in FLAC. I've listened to many audiophiles setups who had a very limited library. To my disappointment, I feel like the more music you have the longer I am going to be entertained. I am only an audiophile because I love music and I want to hear every detail with all the X's and O's being transmitted in harmony to my ears properly since I am not an old analog person but live in a digital age where I want all my music in my desktop library.

post #192 of 345

Does driving a car with good handling, feedback, and power affect the joy and experience of driving?

Does drinking a good glass of wine under a comfortable affect the joy and experience of wine tasting?
Does the material, temperature, process and technique of cooking affect the joy and experience of eating?

Does playing your video game at the optimal frames per second affect the joy and experience of playing?

Does sleeping on a comfortable bed affect the joy and experience of sleeping?
Does reading with appropriate text size and lighting affect the joy and experience of reading?

And here is the final question regarding to this topic,

Does listening to music with the idea sound reproduction ability affect the joy and experience of listening to music?

 

It can be arguable that some people do get side tracked on the original goal of their hobby, but I am certain a majority of the members on this forum continued onto this path because of their love of music.

The love that driver many member to pursuit their idea state of music reproduction, the state they can provide them the most satisfying listening experience.


Edited by DSlayerZX - 11/11/13 at 1:58pm
post #193 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSlayerZX View Post
 

Does driving a car with good handling, feedback, and power affect the joy and experience of driving?

Does drinking a good glass of wine under a comfortable affect the joy and experience of wine tasting?
Does the material, temperature, process and technique of cooking affect the joy and experience of eating?

Does playing your video game at the optimal frames per second affect the joy and experience of playing?

Does sleeping on a comfortable bed affect the joy and experience of sleeping?
Does reading with appropriate text size and lighting affect the joy and experience of reading?

And here is the final question regarding to this topic,

Does listening to music with the idea sound reproduction ability affect the joy and experience of listening to music?

 

It can be arguable that some people do get side tracked on the original goal of their hobby, but I am certain a majority of the members on this forum continued onto this path because of their love of music.

The love that driver many member to pursuit their idea state of music reproduction, the state they can provide them the most satisfying listening experience.

 

All good points and convincing.

But I guess the important thing in this thread is, does exceptionally good (whatever) affect the joy compared to average good.

 

In general, we are talking here on a high baseline level (except the guys who advocate their 30 year old mono recorders and this kind of stuff). So the real question is: is it worth to spend 2000$ on a headphone to replace the 1400$ headphone and does that really enhance the joy. Or, to come back to the original motivation of this thread: is it for love of music or is it for toying around?

 

This wouldn't be about: is the 3$ Ballantine Books issue of Jurassic Park good enough (hell no!) or does it have to be Scribners issue (alt least with readable fonts and sharp print). There is no question? Do you enjoy the story more, if reading is effortless and you can read all the words?

It would be more about: is Scribners issue good enough or does it have to be the gold plated and signed Franklin Library first edition. With certainly better print and better paper, enhanced tactile feel of real leather etc. pp. Well, reading is effortless in both editions. Do you enjoy the latter more?

 

I must say, that the discussions in this thread (keep in mind, this is a high-end, summit hifi forum) made me smile quite a bit.  

 

 

I think we must always keep in mind the circumstances. When you are a child and discover music, the mono recorder is great and you get a kick listening to its music. When you have everything, including the best stereo you can think of, where does the next kick come from? It can only be in the details (or you change your hobby and find new entertainment).

 

Similar with a car: the first car may be crappy but it usually is real fun. Replace the BMW M5 with an AMG 55 or Bentley Continental is simply lame (sic!) and boring. No more joy, just more money trashed - right or wrong?

The question is, where you draw your personal baseline. This is hardly something, where a discussion with others than yourself can come to a conclusion.


Edited by mironathetin - 11/12/13 at 7:44am
post #194 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSlayerZX View Post
 

It can be arguable that some people do get side tracked on the original goal of their hobby, but I am certain a majority of the members on this forum continued onto this path because of their love of music.

Attend enough A/V shows/meets .....  Between measurebators talking about cables and base stands (so I need to buy a thousand dollar resonance eliminating traffic cone to prevent "slight smearing", yeah sure), test playlists that feature the same gregorian chanting or geezer-jazz from 400 B.C or an acoustic banjo dullsville by some guy named Paco, and the occasional knob closing his eyes with his arms folded pretending to be "transported" in order for his fellow knobs to get a good photo ..... you'd swear that the majority were just providing free speech for the deaf.

post #195 of 345
I've seen this debate go in circles for literally decades, and it's always an entertaining one. I fall on both sides of the camp, but I love music first, fancy shiny gadgets second.

At a certain point in my life I realized, since I came to music as student of classical piano repertoire (damn, never got the Waldstein completely under control! Oh well....), that for a lot of audiophiles, myself included, the pursuit of audio electronics excellence was in part a result of stopping at the point of being a listener.

That's when I decided to combine my two joys and enter into a 15-year journey into the world of electronic synthesis, involving both instruments and completely bathing myself in the theory, history and science of sound and its reconstruction through electronic means.

At one point this reached the point of satisfaction of having been able to emulate, with reasonable sonic persuasion, the sound of a cello with a purely electronic instrument. Not using samples, but through the understanding of the nature of the instrument, and the factors that go into its sonic character.

I say this to those of you getting tired of spending thousands on the umpteenth refinement of some component in your signal path. There are other paths to pursue, far more enriching, and rewarding. Alongside, of course, the expansion of your musical tastes.

Life is short, don't waste your time or money on stuff that doesn't really matter.



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