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Light Harmonic GEEK - Page 48

post #706 of 1642
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenF View Post


The year was 2012...

Can you still name a DAC just as small and portable like the DF? I'm not saying the DF is the best but if this project are to succeed , it need to be cheaper and more than the DF in term of device support. When it come down to it, price for performance, consumer will look at this and the DF, if this cost anywhere near the dragonfly or more then I don't seepeople will pick this over the DF.
post #707 of 1642
Quote:
Originally Posted by Law87 View Post


Can you still name a DAC just as small and portable like the DF? I'm not saying the DF is the best but if this project are to succeed , it need to be cheaper and more than the DF in term of device support. When it come down to it, price for performance, consumer will look at this and the DF, if this cost anywhere near the dragonfly or more then I don't seepeople will pick this over the DF.


LH Geek Out

Hifimediy Sabre

M2Tech hiFace DAC

ALO Audio the Key

Stoner Acoustic UD 110v2

etc

post #708 of 1642
Quote:
Originally Posted by Law87 View Post


Can you still name a DAC just as small and portable like the DF? I'm not saying the DF is the best but if this project are to succeed , it need to be cheaper and more than the DF in term of device support. When it come down to it, price for performance, consumer will look at this and the DF, if this cost anywhere near the dragonfly or more then I don't seepeople will pick this over the DF.


Why would it need to be cheaper than the DragonFly when it has far greater output/drive capability into a wider range of available headphone impedances, and also PCM file support for 24/176.4, 24/192, 24/358.2 etc... as well as DSD64 and DSD128 capability.

 

There are other differences too, you can read up on those, but I don't see the logic in your statement that it needs to be "cheaper". And thats to say nothing of actual sound quality. Does that matter at all?

 

I'm not sure of the exact number, but I believe several thousand people already have chosen this over the DragonFly. I'm no DF basher either, it's a good device.

 

As far as "just as small and portable", thats open to interpretation. Saying "just as" suggests each device be the exact same dimensions, which they surely will never be.

 

But yes, I can think of a few just as portable, the Geek Out being one, or the HRT microStreamer, AudioEngine D3, Resonessence Labs Herus, or even the DacMagic XS (added to the @BenF post/listing above).

 

Device support? I don't think there is any issue there excepting Android, which LH Labs has said could be sorted in a matter of weeks via firmware update. And don't blame LH if it isn't, Android comes in many flavors, both OS and actual devices, there is an entire thread on this forum devoted to it.


Edited by MikeyFresh - 4/26/14 at 9:40am
post #709 of 1642

The only reason that it has "compatibility" is because it isn't even USB 2.0 compliant or support DSD. It only supports the same playback modes built-in to a Mac. The DF 1.0 also didn't even sound better than the built-in audio on my gen1 MBP and was sent back to Crutchfield for a refund. So if it doesn't even support any additional modes than what can be played with a bone stock Mac, and really sound much better then why even bother? It's even cheaper to run no DAC in this case.

 

There is no comparison. Why would someone want to play "lowest common denominator" and compete with stock audio output. For $199 the Geek is a much better device in every possible way.

post #710 of 1642
Quote:
Originally Posted by junker View Post
 

The only reason that it has "compatibility" is because it isn't even USB 2.0 compliant or support DSD. It only supports the same playback modes built-in to a Mac. The DF 1.0 also didn't even sound better than the built-in audio on my gen1 MBP and was sent back to Crutchfield for a refund. So if it doesn't even support any additional modes than what can be played with a bone stock Mac, and really sound much better then why even bother? It's even cheaper to run no DAC in this case.

 

There is no comparison. Why would someone want to play "lowest common denominator" and compete with stock audio output. For $199 the Geek is a much better device in every possible way.

 

 

I cant speak for the DF V1.0 because I have the 1.2

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenF View Post
 


LH Geek Out

Hifimediy Sabre

M2Tech hiFace DAC

ALO Audio the Key

Stoner Acoustic UD 110v2

etc

 

 

I would actually look into the stoner acoustic UD110 V2 thanks for pointing it out.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyFresh View Post
 


Why would it need to be cheaper than the DragonFly when it has far greater output/drive capability into a wider range of available headphone impedances, and also PCM file support for 24/176.4, 24/192, 24/358.2 etc... as well as DSD64 and DSD128 capability.

 

There are other differences too, you can read up on those, but I don't see the logic in your statement that it needs to be "cheaper". And thats to say nothing of actual sound quality. Does that matter at all?

 

I'm not sure of the exact number, but I believe several thousand people already have chosen this over the DragonFly. I'm no DF basher either, it's a good device.

 

As far as "just as small and portable", thats open to interpretation. Saying "just as" suggests each device be the exact same dimensions, which they surely will never be.

 

But yes, I can think of a few just as portable, the Geek Out being one, or the HRT microStreamer, AudioEngine D3, Resonessence Labs Herus, or even the DacMagic XS (added to the @BenF post/listing above).

 

Device support? I don't think there is any issue there excepting Android, which LH Labs has said could be sorted in a matter of weeks via firmware update. And don't blame LH if it isn't, Android comes in many flavors, both OS and actual devices, there is an entire thread on this forum devoted to it.

 

the logic is, if you are trying to put out a product that is in the same categories as the DF, you need to somehow be a lot better. My main concern with all these DAC is they claimed device portability and yet the only thing that works is with a PC or laptop. As far as greater sampling goes, can you honestly sit down in a blind test and tell the difference between 24/96 or 24/358.2? even if you can, the average music listener can they do that? probably not, so this chip is only aim for the audiophile audience that can tell the difference between 24/96 and 24/358.2? if that's the case then good luck trying to stay in business.

I am not knocking on this device in term of quality (or any DAC). I am knocking on them for claiming portability and yet they offer only for PC usages, then they try to out do the competitor by throwing things like greater sampler rate just to make them higher than the last guy but honestly like I said, can you tell the difference in a blind test between the DF 24/96 and the Geek 24/358.2. More options is good but quality options is better.

post #711 of 1642
Quote:
Originally Posted by Law87 View Post
 

 

 

I cant speak for the DF V1.0 because I have the 1.2

 

 

 

I would actually look into the stoner acoustic UD110 V2 thanks for pointing it out.

 

 

 

the logic is, if you are trying to put out a product that is in the same categories as the DF, you need to somehow be a lot better. My main concern with all these DAC is they claimed device portability and yet the only thing that works is with a PC or laptop. As far as greater sampling goes, can you honestly sit down in a blind test and tell the difference between 24/96 or 24/358.2? even if you can, the average music listener can they do that? probably not, so this chip is only aim for the audiophile audience that can tell the difference between 24/96 and 24/358.2? if that's the case then good luck trying to stay in business.

I am not knocking on this device in term of quality (or any DAC). I am knocking on them for claiming portability and yet they offer only for PC usages, then they try to out do the competitor by throwing things like greater sampler rate just to make them higher than the last guy but honestly like I said, can you tell the difference in a blind test between the DF 24/96 and the Geek 24/358.2. More options is good but quality options is better.

LH Labs did put out a product in the same category as the DF which is much better, the post by @junker covers that as did my original post about the differences between these products.

 

You skipped past some of that, including the part about 3 different models supporting higher output/drive capability for the various different headphones out there.

 

Who is hung up on trying to "tell the difference" between different sample rates? You've changed the subject of the initial post dramatically there, and it isn't an appropriate topic for this thread.

 

In my case, I have various DVD-Audio discs I bought 10 years ago now ripped to my hard drive. They play back on the GO1000 at the native sample rates. I bet I can get them to play back on the GO1000 through my iPad too, though it will require an additional battery power source.

 

LH Labs didn't design/engineer compatibility with the higher sample rates so that a debate about their efficacy could ensue. The fact is music tracks in these sample rates exist, and some people wish to play it back natively. I doubt you've ever heard any hi-rez tracks, if you did you'd have a slightly different stance.

 

Additionally, there is a burgeoning business in hi-rez downloads, HDtracks has been selling them since 2008, and more recently various others have joined that business.

 

Even the almighty Apple is now rumored to be joining the fray this June or so, though it's unclear if their iTunes Store will limit their offering to 24/48 or not. Apple sells to the masses through the iTunes Store.

 

Your problem is clearly one of price, and also of Android compatibility (which will be solved sometime soon though likely not for every Android device/OS iteration out there). If those are real hang-ups for you, go ahead and shop elsewhere. But please don't get up on a soapbox and proclaim market viability failure of the GO product based on current incompatibility with Android. And don't keep searching hard for reviews or stances by GO owners that the unit is over priced, I doubt you will ever find much in the way of unsatisfied owners based on the unit's price, or value proposition.

 

A laptop computer is a portable device (self/battery powered) but no you can't put it in your pocket. You can however fit a very large music library on it's huge internal storage, unlike a smart phone. So it's a trade off. Many people are forced to travel with a laptop for business purposes, are their mobile needs totally irrelevant?

 

I have a Resonessence Labs Herus that works perfectly well with both Android and iOS, fits in the palm of your hand, has great sound and build quality, etc...and offers all of the hi-rez sample rate support of the Geek Out product too.

 

Interested? Oh of course not, it's $350, I suppose that too is a market viability failure of epic proportion?


Edited by MikeyFresh - 4/26/14 at 11:01am
post #712 of 1642

I'm glad you are happy with your DragonFly. I would respond by suggesting that irregardless of digital format compatibility the machined anodized case, dual port, and robust headphone amplifiers are other features that clearly set the Geek apart from the DF.

 

With regards to sound quality the second you throw ABX out there you are just killing the whole discussion because you could say the same thing about 320kbps or a Stradivarius. What I've found is that it is tossed out there as a pseudo-science wildcard but that in actuality no one does testing in a meaningful way... and in my opinion ABX is a terrible way to compare audio. If you are being intellectually honest here and would really like to do some testing, I have this thread on Computer Audiophile with all the files prepared for testing:

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f14-music-analysis-objective-and-subjective/how-i-learned-stop-worrying-about-formats-and-love-music-19536/

 

I will say that the most notable features of the Geek SQ IMO are the soundstage and imaging which is really surprising. It also has clear, silky presentation that is really pretty impressive for a $199 USB device. I'd like to try it with clean power...

 

The Geek has been good enough for me to use it as a source in Pass gear while I wait for the Pulse X later in the year.Very satisfied here, and if anything it is conservatively underpriced by $100 right now.

post #713 of 1642
Quote:
Originally Posted by junker View Post
 

I'm glad you are happy with your DragonFly. I would respond by suggesting that irregardless of digital format compatibility the machined anodized case, dual port, and robust headphone amplifiers are other features that clearly set the Geek apart from the DF.

 

With regards to sound quality the second you throw ABX out there you are just killing the whole discussion because you could say the same thing about 320kbps or a Stradivarius. What I've found is that it is tossed out there as a pseudo-science wildcard but that in actuality no one does testing in a meaningful way... and in my opinion ABX is a terrible way to compare audio. If you are being intellectually honest here and would really like to do some testing, I have this thread on Computer Audiophile with all the files prepared for testing:

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f14-music-analysis-objective-and-subjective/how-i-learned-stop-worrying-about-formats-and-love-music-19536/

 

I will say that the most notable features of the Geek SQ IMO are the soundstage and imaging which is really surprising. It also has clear, silky presentation that is really pretty impressive for a $199 USB device. I'd like to try it with clean power...

 

The Geek has been good enough for me to use it as a source in Pass gear while I wait for the Pulse X later in the year.Very satisfied here, and if anything it is conservatively underpriced by $100 right now.


Agree on all points, I am using the GO1000 as a line level DAC with an external preamp and active monitors many times it's price.

 

The GO1000 more than holds it's own in that set-up, and as you pointed out, is capable of incredible stereo sound stage imaging, size and focus well beyond what I expected with a refinement not typically associated with bus powered DACs in this price range.

 

Yes, currently underpriced relative to sheer performance and the feature set, though I do see why they need it to be priced "competitively" with lesser offerings such as the DF.

post #714 of 1642

I'll be able to compare a GO to the DFv1 sometime this week based on what Miceblue was saying about the CES units being processed Monday. I'll be more than happy to share comparisons when it's in.

post #715 of 1642

Yeah maybe a single port 100mW model...I think they are doing that one for IEMs? It might be nice to have something positioned at an entry-level price point, but I fear that could just be a race to the bottom because someone can always make a cheaper device and I'm quite sure their margins are already pretty thin here. At some point it's just not worth it anymore with the input costs, overhead, distro, shipping, and support. Don't forget these are being made in the US... ;)

 

AQ probably likes the USB Class 1 Audio because they don't need to license any drivers from Thesycon and they don't have any support issues which would require them to make a lot of investments beyond what they do with their cables. Someone is always going to be asking about ASIO, WASAPI, wrong color, etc. They couldn't price a DF where it is at if they had USB2.0 Audio, DSD, and the required drivers.

 

P.S.: That case alone is worth something to me. So much better than the plasti-dip DF case. I have to say one thing that I really like about the DragonFly though. the colored LED interface is SO great. Love it on the Chord too. =)


Edited by junker - 4/26/14 at 12:00pm
post #716 of 1642
Quote:
Originally Posted by junker View Post
 

Yeah maybe a single port 100mV model...I think they are doing that one for IEMs? It might be nice to have something at entry-level price point, but I fear that could just be a race to the bottom because someone can always make a cheaper device and I'm quite sure their margins are already pretty thin here. At some point it's just not worth it anymore with the input costs, overheard, distro, shipping, and support.

 

AQ probably likes the USB Class 1 Audio because they don't need to license any drivers from Thesycon and they don't have any support issues which would require them to make a lot of investments beyond what they do with their cables.

 

P.S.: That case alone is worth something to me. So much better than the plasti-dip DF case. I have to say one thing that I really like about the DragonFly though. the colored LED interface is SO great. Love it on the Chord too. =)

 

Larry and team are working on a 100mW version which should be in my hands shortly after they're done building the three beta units. They're specifically targeting high end IEMs with that one so I'm excited to see how it does. I don't know where it'll fall in the pricing but it's probably a safe bet to assume around or below the 450mW pricing. But since Larry and the engineering team are focusing on testing hardware for the Pulse currently and the design team are working on the Wave features before moving onto PCB layout, I'm not sure when the 100mW will be completed for testing.

 

I haven't handled a GO yet but I actually like the feel of the plasti-dipped DF case. It's always cool to the touch and has a solid feel even though it's not made from metal. But I won't be surprised if the GO impresses me so much that the DF is gone shortly after.

post #717 of 1642

o lawdy, I'll just wait for the euphoric to go away, I should have known there would be some fan boys in this thread. I'll just wait for someone with some creds to do a review. My statement still stand, this product will need to have good mobile support in order to compete with the DF for around that price range. Cost isnt the issue but price to performance is the issue.

post #718 of 1642
Quote:
Originally Posted by junker View Post
 

I'm glad you are happy with your DragonFly. I would respond by suggesting that irregardless of digital format compatibility the machined anodized case, dual port, and robust headphone amplifiers are other features that clearly set the Geek apart from the DF.

 

With regards to sound quality the second you throw ABX out there you are just killing the whole discussion because you could say the same thing about 320kbps or a Stradivarius. What I've found is that it is tossed out there as a pseudo-science wildcard but that in actuality no one does testing in a meaningful way... and in my opinion ABX is a terrible way to compare audio. If you are being intellectually honest here and would really like to do some testing, I have this thread on Computer Audiophile with all the files prepared for testing:

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f14-music-analysis-objective-and-subjective/how-i-learned-stop-worrying-about-formats-and-love-music-19536/

 

I will say that the most notable features of the Geek SQ IMO are the soundstage and imaging which is really surprising. It also has clear, silky presentation that is really pretty impressive for a $199 USB device. I'd like to try it with clean power...

 

The Geek has been good enough for me to use it as a source in Pass gear while I wait for the Pulse X later in the year.Very satisfied here, and if anything it is conservatively underpriced by $100 right now.


just to clarify, I am not happy with my DF V1.2 I bought it for mobile support, but so far, I can only use it with my Laptop. Thats where the discussion of this product need to do more than the DF in regard to supporting devices on the go. If the geek only support PC then it would have a hard time competing with the DF because its not bringing out what the average user want. upsampling to a greater bit rate is good, awesome, but no one beside the best audiophile can sit there and point out the difference between 24/96 and 24/358.2. That is all I'm saying. sort of like a mercedes car sales person trying to tell you to buy 19" rims instead of 18" because its a "Luxury" feature, honestly does anyone fall for that? if you do shoot yourself, bigger wheel make the ride harsher not more luxurious.


Edited by Law87 - 4/26/14 at 11:22am
post #719 of 1642
Quote:
Originally Posted by Law87 View Post


just to clarify, I am not happy with my DF V1.2 I bought it for mobile support, but so far, I can only use it with my Laptop. Thats where the discussion of this product need to do more than the DF in regard to supporting devices on the go. If the geek only support PC then it would have a hard time competing with the DF because its not bringing out what the average user want. upsampling to a greater bit rate is good, awesome, but no one beside the best audiophile can sit there and point out the difference between 24/96 and 24/358.2. That is all I'm saying. sort of like a mercedes car sales person trying to tell you to buy 19" rims instead of 18" because its a "Luxury" feature, honestly does anyone fall for that? if you do shoot yourself, bigger wheel make the ride harsher not more luxurious.

 

It sounds like what you're looking for is their Geek Wave S and not the Geek Out. It's specifically designed with mobile support in mind and adds a nice internal battery.

post #720 of 1642
Quote:
Originally Posted by AxelCloris View Post
 

 

It sounds like what you're looking for is their Geek Wave S and not the Geek Out. It's specifically designed with mobile support in mind and adds a nice internal battery.


thanks I'll look into it.

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