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Westone UM PRO Series Thread - Page 14

post #196 of 675

Comments moved.


Edited by Spyro - 1/6/14 at 6:29pm
post #197 of 675

i'm seeing a few reviews saying um30 is better than um3x blah blah. can we even trust them?

 

lol i mean, come one. i look the the drivers they seems to be the same. one twfk and 1 ci driver. and the constructions are the same. the twfk is on top of the ci driver and the crossover pcb is below. even the caps or resistor looks the same. i can't be sure unless someone opens up a um30, but from what i heard from westone rap there are no difference other than the connector. 


Edited by smoothtalker - 1/13/14 at 9:03am
post #198 of 675
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothtalker View Post

i'm seeing a few reviews saying um30 is better than um3x blah blah. can we even trust them?

lol i mean, come one. i look the the drivers they seems to be the same. one twfk and 1 ci driver. and the constructions are the same. the twfk is on top of the ci driver and the crossover pcb is below. even the caps or resistor looks the same. i can't be sure unless someone opens up a um30, but from what i heard from westone rap there are no difference other than the connector. 
I believe now the attention and focus has been shifted to both W50 and W60. Hopefully more additions to the UM PRO family too!
post #199 of 675

UM Pro 50 spotted at CES

 

 

Source: http://ameblo.jp/e-earphone/entry-11745701218.html

post #200 of 675
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lalala6 View Post

UM Pro 50 spotted at CES








Source: http://ameblo.jp/e-earphone/entry-11745701218.html
Nice pictures! Definitely prefer the UM series design more than W series.
post #201 of 675
Quote:
Originally Posted by xaddictionx View Post

I believe now the attention and focus has been shifted to both W50 and W60. Hopefully more additions to the UM PRO family too!
Looks like the w50 and 60 are set to challenge the shure se846 and sennheiser ie800 in the high end UIEM market
post #202 of 675
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fluffyberry View Post

Looks like the w50 and 60 are set to challenge the shure se846 and sennheiser ie800 in the high end UIEM market
Definitely. Actually there are a lot of UIEM in the market now that is similarly priced to Se846 and ie800. But seems like they're not getting much attention. Really does seems like a driver race with no new technology or innovation. Just the tuning and preferences wise only. On a good note UM Pro saw the launch of UM Pro 50!!
post #203 of 675
Quote:
Originally Posted by xaddictionx View Post


Definitely. Actually there are a lot of UIEM in the market now that is similarly priced to Se846 and ie800. But seems like they're not getting much attention. Really does seems like a driver race with no new technology or innovation. Just the tuning and preferences wise only. On a good note UM Pro saw the launch of UM Pro 50!!

 

These companies are laughing all the way to the bank. Lord knows how much margin and profit is in these things. Going to guess astronomical, and probably more than most other technologies and hobbies in current existence. I go away for just a few months and it seems like all these IEM companies have suddenly decided to charge even more absurd sums for these top end models, for which R&D and Manufacturing costs most probably do not cost that much more than previous models, models that cost less than half as much to buy.

 

I think the Audiophile industry is headed in a real bad direction right now. Veering even further away from larger markets and more towards the extreme niche, highly specialised and ultra wealthy. It seems industries around the world, post recession, are further promoting the tactic of profiting greater by charging more to the few, as oppose to less from the many.

 

I also feel like there's very little actual advancement in terms of technologies, innovations and true sonic differences, despite what the enormous price discrepancies might imply. 

 

As someone who invests a lot in many different hobbies, audio vision (TV's, headphones, earphones), badminton and so on, the lack of true advancement in technology these days, coupled with insane price hiking and pricing increases is just absolutely depressing.

 

Certain LED TV's costing thousands more than plasma's despite having scientifically worse PQ, Black levels and colour accuracy. Top end plasma's even going out of business! TV tech taking years to even match the quality of several year old tech (compared to the Pioneer Kuro's). Badminton rackets which are basically re-issued versions of older design fundamentals with a few marketing trinkets thrown in along with huge price increases. Headphones costing several thousands for sound that is more about personal taste than actual reference audio, and even then arguably still falling short of old classics that are years and years old (MDR-R10, Orpheus etc). Earphones that think adding an extra driver and a slight tweak of the sonic signature somehow justifies several hundred dollars more in cost and so on and so on.

 

It's getting absolutely ludicrous. 

 

Eventually consumers need to attempt to put aside excessive desires, speaking with their wallets, in order to balance the markets and force them to offer consumers across all the margins, far greater value proposition.


Edited by Naim.F.C - 1/16/14 at 7:56pm
post #204 of 675
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naim.F.C View Post

These companies are laughing all the way to the bank. Lord knows how much margin and profit is in these things. Going to guess astronomical, and probably more than most other technologies and hobbies in current existence. I go away for just a few months and it seems like all these IEM companies have suddenly decided to charge even more absurd sums for these top end models, for which R&D and Manufacturing costs most probably do not cost that much more than previous models, models that cost less than half as much to buy.

I think the Audiophile industry is headed in a real bad direction right now. Veering even further away from larger markets and more towards the extreme niche, highly specialised and ultra wealthy. It seems industries around the world, post recession, are further promoting the tactic of profiting greater by charging more to the few, as oppose to less from the many.

I also feel like there's very little actual advancement in terms of technologies, innovations and true sonic differences, despite what the enormous price discrepancies might imply. 

As someone who invests a lot in many different hobbies, audio vision (TV's, headphones, earphones), badminton and so on, the lack of true advancement in technology these days, coupled with insane price hiking and pricing increases is just absolutely depressing.

Certain LED TV's costing thousands more than plasma's despite having scientifically worse PQ, Black levels and colour accuracy. Top end plasma's even going out of business! TV tech taking years to even match the quality of several year old tech (compared to the Pioneer Kuro's). Badminton rackets which are basically re-issued versions of older design fundamentals with a few marketing trinkets thrown in along with huge price increases. Headphones costing several thousands for sound that is more about personal taste than actual reference audio, and even then arguably still falling short of old classics that are years and years old (MDR-R10, Orpheus etc). Earphones that think adding an extra driver and a slight tweak of the sonic signature somehow justifies several hundred dollars more in cost and so on and so on.

It's getting absolutely ludicrous. 

Eventually consumers need to attempt to put aside excessive desires, speaking with their wallets, in order to balance the markets and force them to offer consumers across all the margins, far greater value proposition.
Agree! Probably heading in the direction of an expanding bubble like the credit expansion.
post #205 of 675

its really quite sad... i dont have a problem with these companies trying to cater to 'audiophiles' but when they push the impression that you can be one and/or are only considered one is when you have one of their ridiculously expansive products, then there is a problem

post #206 of 675
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fluffyberry View Post

its really quite sad... i dont have a problem with these companies trying to cater to 'audiophiles' but when they push the impression that you can be one and/or are only considered one is when you have one of their ridiculously expansive products, then there is a problem
Thumbs up!!
post #207 of 675
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naim.F.C View Post
 

 

These companies are laughing all the way to the bank. Lord knows how much margin and profit is in these things. Going to guess astronomical, and probably more than most other technologies and hobbies in current existence. I go away for just a few months and it seems like all these IEM companies have suddenly decided to charge even more absurd sums for these top end models, for which R&D and Manufacturing costs most probably do not cost that much more than previous models, models that cost less than half as much to buy.

 

I think the Audiophile industry is headed in a real bad direction right now. Veering even further away from larger markets and more towards the extreme niche, highly specialised and ultra wealthy. It seems industries around the world, post recession, are further promoting the tactic of profiting greater by charging more to the few, as oppose to less from the many.

 

I also feel like there's very little actual advancement in terms of technologies, innovations and true sonic differences, despite what the enormous price discrepancies might imply. 

 

As someone who invests a lot in many different hobbies, audio vision (TV's, headphones, earphones), badminton and so on, the lack of true advancement in technology these days, coupled with insane price hiking and pricing increases is just absolutely depressing.

 

Certain LED TV's costing thousands more than plasma's despite having scientifically worse PQ, Black levels and colour accuracy. Top end plasma's even going out of business! TV tech taking years to even match the quality of several year old tech (compared to the Pioneer Kuro's). Badminton rackets which are basically re-issued versions of older design fundamentals with a few marketing trinkets thrown in along with huge price increases. Headphones costing several thousands for sound that is more about personal taste than actual reference audio, and even then arguably still falling short of old classics that are years and years old (MDR-R10, Orpheus etc). Earphones that think adding an extra driver and a slight tweak of the sonic signature somehow justifies several hundred dollars more in cost and so on and so on.

 

It's getting absolutely ludicrous. 

 

Eventually consumers need to attempt to put aside excessive desires, speaking with their wallets, in order to balance the markets and force them to offer consumers across all the margins, far greater value proposition.

 

 

I disagree.   The SQ and advancements keep improving.  SE846 bass technology is a revelation.  3-way crossover is a recent revelation.  There are simply more choices.

 

Don't think they are making money hand over fist.  I would say they make more money off $200-300 IEM's than $900 just due to volume.  Think of the research $$ it took to make SE846.  Now, how many are buying this $1,000 IEM?  Yea.....very few.  Shure might be losing their asses especially if people choose to go custom at that price.

 

I say quit whinning and just don't participate in that market.  Heck, the SQ in the under $150 IEM's has gone up dramatically.  If you stay within your price range you should be able to get an IEM that sounds fantastic.  This is a great time for this market.  Don't be jealous that you cant afford top end...take advantage of great sound quality within your budget. 

post #208 of 675
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyro View Post
 

 

 

I disagree.   The SQ and advancements keep improving.  SE846 bass technology is a revelation.  3-way crossover is a recent revelation.  There are simply more choices.

 

Don't think they are making money hand over fist.  I would say they make more money off $200-300 IEM's than $900 just due to volume.  Think of the research $$ it took to make SE846.  Now, how many are buying this $1,000 IEM?  Yea.....very few.  Shure might be losing their asses especially if people choose to go custom at that price.

 

I say quit whinning and just don't participate in that market.  Heck, the SQ in the under $150 IEM's has gone up dramatically.  If you stay within your price range you should be able to get an IEM that sounds fantastic.  This is a great time for this market.  Don't be jealous that you cant afford top end...take advantage of great sound quality within your budget. 

 

Firstly, don't be so quick to assume the degree of someone's wealth, just because they pertain to be a bit more savvy in trying to seek out greater value proposition. I also don't think someone my age could be deemed as not being able to "afford top end" when I've invested in equipment like the T1's, LCD-2's, HD800's, V200's, W4's, SE535's and all the rest. And that's just products purchased for one of my hobbies….Those who are familiar with my posts will know I've posted detailed impressions of many of these products, and still own several of these higher end items. 

 

On that note, it's not just a question of whether one can afford these products or not, it's about being a frugal consumer base, unified in seeking the absolute best value proposition in whatever we purchase. It's the only way we'll truly ensure the industry pushes the boundaries not just in design and performance, but value for money too. Now obviously value is a very subjective thing, but we need to get ahold of our senses in not letting manufacturers take advantage of our hobbies in veering further and further away from 'value for money', simply because they can.

 

As someone who has two businesses and sells products in one of them, I don't believe for a second the profit margins on these higher end items are not getting more and more excessive, nor do I believe the R&D costs are as exorbitant as you presume. If they were, the advancements in technology would stretch far greater than things like driver tweaking and extra driver additions, and the sonic differences would be far greater too. I also don't doubt that these companies make more off the lower end products than they do the higher end one's, but that doesn't mean they're not striving to extract more and more from the higher end buyers either.

 

 

If people keep paying ridiculous sums for smaller and smaller differences, they'll keep charging these excessive sums and making these incremental or merely subjectively improved products. Blind test a selection of the highest end IEM's amongst each other with a selection of random music enthusiasts as I have done, and what you'll find is the one's that people prefer will not only differ greatly, but a lot of the time they will have little semblance or correlation to the actual price attached to the product.

 

As I said in my previous post, things are getting ludicrous. Companies (not all mind) charging more and more for less and less. 

 

 

Sonic preference confused with sonic improvements.

 

As someone who's now had a listen to the SE846's, and compared them with my W4's back to back, I was shocked that yet again, the humongous difference in cost between the two made virtually no difference to actual sonic improvements, merely a matter of sonic preference. The SE846 is not sonically objectively better than the W4's. Are they livelier and slightly more crisp? Sure. But so are the SE535's! Doesn't mean that makes them any more reference in sonic production. Quite the opposite imo. You're essentially paying an extra $600 to have a different flavour of personal sonic colour added to your sonic experience, and that's it.

 

Similarly, the W4's are not even objectively sonically better than the UM3X either. Despite having an extra driver and costing more. Actually I'd say the UM3X's offer a flatter and more true to reference sound. I merely went with the W4's because I personally preferred the slightly darker and more slick sonic presentation. And that's the entire joke of it. You're not always necessarily paying more and more money for better sound. Just different sound.

 

 

The reason I'm really apprehensive and cynical about the new Westone 5 driver IEM's is because of their tact with the last few releases and the antics of some of their competitors with the recent batch of new IEM's, and the ridiculous prices that have gone with them. Even within Westone, the W40 an extra $130+ more than the W4R and more for the W4 because of what? Slightly different housing, swappable colours and a tweaked cable? It's pretty hilarious really. This is what it has come down to. Much of the industry is having a party at the consumers expense.


Edited by Naim.F.C - 1/17/14 at 7:28pm
post #209 of 675

Quite understandable but if they don't release something new in order to catch up with rivals they are going to die...

 

 

Perhaps now is just a transition period where it all began when Shure released SE846 at $K. 

 

Well, talking about $K UIEM there has been K3003 or to go 334 before, but Shure is very major and they must be way more influential.

 

Currently all manufacturers should be still watching how market will react.

 

If there is something wrong as Naim. F.C. suggests, this trend should naturally be corrected under the rules of market economy and price will come down.

 

 

Recently I got SE846 and S-EM6 and they are actually good... I mean to my preference I like them better than 535 or SM64.

 

From this experience I might be also interested in UM 50pro (I used to have UM3X and liked them) but in that case perhaps I will sell either 846 or S-EM6.

 

...I know, a person like me contributes to keep the price high... but on the other hand there are also many people who find no reason to be interested.

(I feel that IEM with quad drivers or more tend to give thicker sound and not everyone loves it)

post #210 of 675

NaimFC...Good post and I understand where you are coming from.  I, too, was quick to complain several months ago that after reading many reviews it seemed pretty apparent that SE846 was a SE535 with better bass.....but at a $600 premium?  Truly insane.  But I DO think W4 is quite different and superior to UM3X and easily worth a $100 upgrade.   While UM3X is thicker and heavier sounding, W4 has better extended treble and a much larger soundstage.

 

But you make many nice observations.  I guess I would add that, for many, price is no object....they gotta have it and the manufacturers know these people are out there.   Like people that can't wait 2 years for their phone contract to be up to be able to get a free phone.  They will pay $300 to have it after 12 or 14 months.   But I blame the consumer for that.  That's just throwing their own money away.


Edited by Spyro - 1/18/14 at 3:33pm
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