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Why does the transport matter? - Page 6

post #76 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by duncan1 View Post

Quote- As tested independently by a UK well known hi-fi mag using the latest electronic test equipment costing £100000-or more. on the Cyrus XTSE[not the plus which I have]=Signal related jitter in the digital stream can be seen in our analysis where the residual from a 1 KHZ--minus 60DB tone can be seen with a level of 45  PS at 1KHZ and other related components remain below-10PS .The jitter residual from the -60DB [minus] tone is about as low as it gets so the Cyrus transport is as clean as can be reasonably expected.Random jitter from hum and clock noise etc was very low, lower than 5PS on peaks. Checks were made of sample rate and to ensure linearity wasnt compromised by factors such as noise. Band width extended to 21 KHZ a sweep into our Rohde+ Schwarz UPV digital analyser. fixed tones giving a perfectly flat result with measured distortion at 0.019--as low as it gets. The Cyrus CD XTSE transport gives a fine set of results as a transport and works very well.end quote.  

Do you understand the term "total correlated jitter"?

 

And why do you suddenly quote expensive measurement machines? I thought machines ("robots") are evil?

 

If it fits your "argument" you badmouth measurements, but when it doesn't you use them for your argument. One time you make anti-scientific statements, the next time you use science. Can't have it both ways..


Edited by xnor - 8/17/13 at 12:44pm
post #77 of 85

The thread says---Why does the transport matter . You and your friends come crashing in to take it over . I was directing it to your lot   objective cafe gangsters. to show that engineering wise  I bought a good transport it is not aimed at the "ordinary" head fier In your book when science reaches a certain level thats it as far as you are concerned --It doesnt matter any dac will do etc etc etc. I dont hold that view .If your systems are incapable of  reaching down to that level then thats your problem   It  is not easy in a SS amp design as you are up against odd order distortion and noise that can be heard at minute levels . Its at that level I try to compete with tubes WITHOUT  adding small value frequency correction caps /local feedback caps and --100PF comp. caps    

post #78 of 85

Bigshot -That's my whole point . You can only hear minute amounts of noise/distortion if your whole system is capable  of resolving it. To somebody with a system that isn't down to the last vestige of detail at the end of sibilance isn't resolving the music to its full ability. Nobody likes to hear sibilance 90% of systems just call it a day and  build circuits with small caps built in to soften the sibilance to make it more acceptable to the buyers. But I want to go further ,Why cant designers put a lot of time and effort into building an amp that does go right down to minute levels . and then moving components/changing components you achieve a situation where you can hear the sibilance but it is smoothly performed because of all the time spent on the circuit. I proved long ago that just moving components  could reduce the comp.cap down to a low numerical value. simply because the circuit was more stable . Its not magic its just time and trouble  . But people don't like an ugly PCB layout.Even if it gives you detail down to the last edge of each note.I am not talking of amps with 0.001 dis% That to me is more of a --it doesn't matter so much- its what it sounds like and at the end of the day if it sounds good then you have achieved something. Don't you realize there are may ADE who are scared stiff of upsetting objectives  day after day they are put down . And after an amp appears in EW its only at the end that the words --and I quote from an actual design engineers comments on his design----Oh. And I invited some friends over and they liked it. Too scared even to say .it sounded GOOD.Call me  a rebel  but look at the American forces that were captured in Vietnam and were brainwashed by the Vietnamese military. Well in a superior forces situation I would give in         maybe outwardly  but never internally. 

post #79 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by duncan1 View Post

Bigshot -That's my whole point . You can only hear minute amounts of noise/distortion if your whole system is capable  of resolving it.

It doesn't matter how resolving your system is if the amount of noise and distortion is below the thresholds of human perception. .01% THD... .0001% THD. It's all good. You can split the decimal points down to subatomic levels, but you aren't going to be able to hear it with human ears.

Now if you've got a pet bat, it may be a different story I suppose.

There are ways to improve the sound of your system, but they don't involve fixing things you can't hear anyway.
Edited by bigshot - 8/17/13 at 2:01pm
post #80 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by duncan1 View Post

The thread says---Why does the transport matter . You and your friends come crashing in to take it over .

 

If anyone subverted the topic it was because the question was incorrectly framed. The question has simply been reworded to "does the transport matter ?" The original question was flawed as it included an a priori assumption that was not warranted. Having reframed the question rational debate can then start.

 

I was directing it to your lot   objective cafe gangsters. to show that engineering wise  I bought a good transport

 

Fine, but you've not shown that it actually makes any audible difference, the "does it matter" part

 

 

it is not aimed at the "ordinary" head fier In your book when science reaches a certain level thats it as far as you are concerned --It doesnt matter any dac will do

 

There are some spectacularly bad DACs such as the Zanden these are often very expensive, but building a competent DAC is pretty trivial nowadays and when otherwise competent DACs actually do sound different you can find the cause easily in measurable parameters. That said there have been very few properly controlled DBTs indicating audible differences in DACs and much more that do not, here are just a few in the "do not" category  http://www.matrixhifi.com/marco.htm - see PRUEBAS CIEGAS

 

etc etc etc. I dont hold that view .

 

That is your belief now if you could support it with empirical listening tests that would be interesting, anecdotes are not strong evidence.

 

 

If your systems are incapable of  reaching down to that level then thats your problem  

 

The "your system is not good enough" clause

  

 


Edited by nick_charles - 8/17/13 at 2:37pm
post #81 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by duncan1 View Post

The thread says---Why does the transport matter . You and your friends come crashing in to take it over . I was directing it to your lot   objective cafe gangsters. to show that engineering wise  I bought a good transport it is not aimed at the "ordinary" head fier In your book when science reaches a certain level thats it as far as you are concerned --It doesnt matter any dac will do etc etc etc. I dont hold that view .If your systems are incapable of  reaching down to that level then thats your problem   It  is not easy in a SS amp design as you are up against odd order distortion and noise that can be heard at minute levels . Its at that level I try to compete with tubes WITHOUT  adding small value frequency correction caps /local feedback caps and --100PF comp. caps    

Dude, I'm glad you have an expensive transport and the Cyprus does seems like a good machine. But this is not what we talking about. We're talking about why it matter? We have shown many times how the play clock is independent from the media clock in Async mode as they are in different clock domain. I still failed to see how the jitter performance in the transport matter and result in better quality that can only be heard with an expensive amp. How does the DAC figure in here? You also suggested power supply noise in the transport caused the jitter in the DAC and I can't envision how noise in the transport get into the DAC. I don't think we are talking about same things here. Other than knowing you have an expensive transport that "ordinary" head-fier can't afford, I'm not getting any other info.

 

Price seems to be one of your obsession. $ does not equal quality. I would like to direct you to this site www.xmos.com. These folks produced a $3.50 chip that produced a 4.5ps jitter at the output of the DAC or more precisely, clocking the output of the DAC. The clock itself has a 600ps jitter. So a low cost high end solution is possible. And this chips is designed by some fine engineers in the UK.

post #82 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvw View Post

Dude, I'm glad you have an expensive transport and the Cyprus does seems like a good machine. But this is not what we talking about. We're talking about why it matter? We have shown many times how the play clock is independent from the media clock in Async mode as they are in different clock domain. I still failed to see how the jitter performance in the transport matter and result in better quality that can only be heard with an expensive amp. How does the DAC figure in here? You also suggested power supply noise in the transport caused the jitter in the DAC and I can't envision how noise in the transport get into the DAC. I don't think we are talking about same things here. Other than knowing you have an expensive transport that "ordinary" head-fier can't afford, I'm not getting any other info.

 

Price seems to be one of your obsession. $ does not equal quality. I would like to direct you to this site www.xmos.com. These folks produced a $3.50 chip that produced a 4.5ps jitter at the output of the DAC or more precisely, clocking the output of the DAC. The clock itself has a 600ps jitter. So a low cost high end solution is possible. And this chips is designed by some fine engineers in the UK.

 

 

 

 

 

wink.gif


Edited by nick_charles - 8/17/13 at 4:43pm
post #83 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick_charles View Post
 

What's that? Union jacks and tux in the audience, hoodies on stage with gold medal, people singing, that sure looked like fun and very patriotic.

post #84 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvw View Post

What's that? Union jacks and tux in the audience, hoodies on stage with gold medal, people singing, that sure looked like fun and very patriotic.

 

 

Before I swapped the video it was Rule Brittania from the last night of the proms http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Proms 2012, a British music festival that runs over the British summer until September. It is normally pretty eclectic up till the last night http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Proms#Last_Night_of_the_Proms which by tradition is mostly British music such as Elgar, with loads of hymns/anthems such as Rule Brittania (which that was), Jerusalem, Land of Hope and Glory and so on.

 

That particular last night (2012) was made more fun by the relative success of the British Olympic team , I believe the athletes on stage were from the water-oriented events yachting and so on as evidence of Brittania ruling the waves - ha ha.

 

The proms is great fun, I used to go when I lived in London and historically a very important festival as it brought classical music within the reach of the non-rich

 

I swapped the clip out for one slightly less nationalistic - the original is at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yprh8ElXgbU


Edited by nick_charles - 8/17/13 at 10:24pm
post #85 of 85

Thanks

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