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The Entry Level Stax Thread - Page 50

post #736 of 2553

The bottom line is that the ground connection is to prevent shock and not fire.  Live AC wire touches ground and the breaker kills that circuit in an instant.  The fuse is there to prevent too much current and thus to prevent fire. 

post #737 of 2553
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marleybob217 View Post
 

Then why are ungrounded sockets still in use/being sold? Or are there devices than just don't need that ground connection?

I've been using ungrounded power strips for years, exactly because of the hum problem. Needless to say I never had any fires :D

 

Ungrounded sockets no longer meet residential Electrical Code in Canada.

I don't believe they meet residential electrical code in most parts of the USA either.

If you were to sell a house in some parts of Canada with 2 pin AC receptacles you probably have to upgrade the wiring before selling the house.

Some insurance companies may refuse to insure your house.

Depends on the Authority Having Jurisdiction where you are located.

I'm sure the same holds true for most parts of the USA.

 

 

Saying you've never had any fires or received an electrical shock is like saying you've driven a car for 7 years without using seatbelts, you've never had any trouble, the car works fine, therefore it must be OK.


Edited by Chris J - 11/15/13 at 7:30pm
post #738 of 2553
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shipsupt View Post
 

Ok, I'm not smart then.

 

 

Yes. A device in plastic enclosure with no path for electricity to reach the user in case the hot lead comes into contact with the chassis is a good example.  

I wouldn't worry about stuff bursting into flames because of it, but there is a chance of electrical shock.

1... I don't remember saying you weren't smart

2.   I don't remember saying I was smarter than you

3.   think about this:

first you remove the ground pin from a 3 pin AC power cable.

now you can plug it in any way you want to as the ground pin also ensured line pin went to line, neutral pin went to neutral.

i.e. you can now interchange line with neutral.

if you interchange line with neutral then if you have a high resistance ground fault to chassis in your equipment and your equipment is grounded somewhere else you may pull as much as approx. 14 amps without the line breaker tripping because you have now defeated the line fuse in your equipment.

14 Amps X 120 Vac = 1680 Watts

and now your equipment has the potential to overheat and catch fire.

don't thank me, Nelson Pass pointed this out in one of his papers on the Pass Labs website. 

post #739 of 2553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marleybob217 View Post
 

Then why are ungrounded sockets still in use/being sold? Or are there devices than just don't need that ground connection? 

I've been using ungrounded power strips for years, exactly because of the hum problem. Needless to say I never had any fires :D

 

So you don't get electrocuted? http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/everyday-tech/question110.htm

post #740 of 2553
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marleybob217 View Post
 

Somehow I don't think these devices would never reach the market. 

What if you use grounded sockets, but the electricity in your house isn't grounded anywhere? I don't think the electricity in my house is grounded anywhere.

 

BTW,

If your house isn't grounded, the GFCI won't operate properly either.

I've seen this happen twice.

First time was my cousin's house was not grounded.

Her husband could not figure out why the GFCI in the bathroom were not operating properly.

Eventually he found out that their house was no longer bonded to ground.

A plumber had disconnected ground from a water pipe.

post #741 of 2553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post
 

 

BTW,

If your house isn't grounded, the GFCI won't operate properly either.

I've seen this happen twice.

First time was my cousin's house was not grounded.

Her husband could not figure out why the GFCI in the bathroom were not operating properly.

Eventually he found out that their house was no longer bonded to ground.

A plumber had disconnected ground from a water pipe.

 

That can kill you.

post #742 of 2553
Thread Starter 

In addition, this is why many metal enclosures for audio equipment are bonded to ground:

 

http://www.rane.com/note151.html

 

http://www.rane.com/note110.html


Edited by Chris J - 11/15/13 at 8:32pm
post #743 of 2553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post
 

 

Ungrounded sockets no longer meet residential Electrical Code in Canada.

I don't believe they meet residential electrical code in most parts of the USA either.

If you were to sell a house in some parts of Canada with 2 pin AC receptacles you probably have to upgrade the wiring before selling the house.

Some insurance companies may refuse to insure your house.

Depends on the Authority Having Jurisdiction where you are located.

I'm sure the same holds true for most parts of the USA.

 

Saying you've never had any fires or received an electrical shock is like saying you've driven a car for 7 years without using seatbelts, you've never had any trouble, the car works fine, therefore it must be OK.

Shortcircuits will turn of all electricity, preventing any kind of fire. No need for grounded sockets to prevent fires. And I'm not from the US, I'm from Europe. Not that it should make much difference, although I'm pretty sure any kind of shortcircuit will also turn off the 'main switch' in the us. 

post #744 of 2553

Guys, since we're heading towards personal insults being posted, I'm going to ask that you get back on to the topic of discussing Stax gear. 

 

Chris J: Feel free to start your own topic about grounding and safety. 


Edited by Currawong - 11/15/13 at 9:07pm
post #745 of 2553
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marleybob217 View Post
 

Shortcircuits will turn of all electricity, preventing any kind of fire. No need for grounded sockets to prevent fires. And I'm not from the US, I'm from Europe. Not that it should make much difference, although I'm pretty sure any kind of shortcircuit will also turn off the 'main switch' in the us. 

 

Yes, a short circuit should normally cause overcurrent protection to operate.

Occasionally old circuit breakers can mechanically bind up and not open up.

In addition, there is such a thing as a high impedance ground fault.

I have seen the damage a high impedance ground fault can cause: in one example, fire, and the overcurrent protection DID NOT OPERATE, i.e. not enough ground fault current to trip the overcurrent protection.

 

This is one of the reasons why residential wiring is slowly moving towards arc sensing circuit breakers.

 

Don't take my word for it, go look it up.

post #746 of 2553
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Currawong View Post
 

Guys, since we're heading towards personal insults being posted, I'm going to ask that you get back on to the topic of discussing Stax gear. 

 

In that case...............................enough out of me.

 

I like Stax gear.

I like Stax gear a lot.

 

Goodnight.

post #747 of 2553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post
 

 

In that case...............................enough out of me.

 

I like Stax gear.

I like Stax gear a lot.

 

Goodnight.

:biggrin:

post #748 of 2553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post
 

 

Yes, a short circuit should normally cause overcurrent protection to operate.

Occasionally old circuit breakers can mechanically bind up and not open up.

In addition, there is such a thing as a high impedance ground fault.

I have seen the damage a high impedance ground fault can cause: in one example, fire, and the overcurrent protection DID NOT OPERATE, i.e. not enough ground fault current to trip the overcurrent protection.

 

This is one of the reasons why residential wiring is slowly moving towards arc sensing circuit breakers.

 

Don't take my word for it, go look it up.

I have to say, I have friends who had their house burn down because circuit breakers did not work. I believe the origin of fire was a macbook adapter...

Luckily, the circuit breakers in my old house work fine. I've tested them many times...

post #749 of 2553
Nevermind... Wrong thread
smily_headphones1.gif
Edited by mangler - 11/16/13 at 7:59am
post #750 of 2553
Yeah, I was listening to the STAX setup again during the wee hours of the morning with no noise around me and I couldn't hear any ham sounds. Strange.
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