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Recomend me a 'good' entry level tube headphone amp. - Page 3

post #31 of 227
I haven't. But I have already posted above impressions of people who have heard above. And tube rolling can also benefits Sunrise II and Ember, so that is hardly a point. Besides, if they had to offer the metal chassis of Lyr, 5 years warranty and the support and overheads Schiit has to take care of, then even the Sunrise II would cost $450. Just because it costs $250 doesn't mean it doesn't offer good sound. It is because it isn't run as a company and more as a hobby. The same way a beta22 can be had for $800 built by a college student but would still sound like a $1500-2000 amp. Just an example, don't take each value seriously.

The lyr definitely has the power which sr ii doesn't. But if you can go with ember then it is $340 without the chassis and the future chassis will cost $75. So these are priced identically and are comparable performance products, each with its own pros and cons. Not having a chassis and being a smaller company helps reduce the prices a lot.
post #32 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by techboy View Post

I haven't.

 

You could have stopped right therebiggrin.gif.

post #33 of 227
No. You need to see the full picture smily_headphones1.gif Lots of people have heard both. And none of the people in this thread have heard the amps to compare either. But they haven't found it necessary to do proper research either frown.gif
post #34 of 227

No. I just answered the questions that the OP had asked.

Then you came in here spouting your Garage1217 fanboi foolishness and ended up adding two pages of wothless info to the op's thread.

 

This really grows old and it's time for a moderator to prune out the OT sales pitches of equipment suggestions that don't meet with the OP's original post.

 

I'm done here, this is starting to have shades of the Z-Man...

post #35 of 227
No, you didn't.

1. Perhaps the op doesn't know that hybrid designs aren't worse by any means. He is a new comer and needs to be suggested all options.

2. His budget is 200 quids which is perfect for a sr ii,
post #36 of 227

I have heard the project sunrise, and who ever thinks the sound is comparable to the lyr needs to go AB them together. 

 

The millet is actually a slightly better design, but the nice thing is that the 12au7 mod actually adds a decent amount of warmth to it. Plus you can build it by using point to point soldering rather than trying to use those silly circuit boards that cost a bit of money. If you have the patience for it, you can also research the parts needed for the millet and source much higher grade parts for it. 

 

All that being said. The millet isn't all that great either. Don't get me wrong, the millet sounds fantastic for under 100 pounds/dollars, but at the 200 pound mark, I wonder if something like a simple EL34 with a 12au7 preamp tube could be done. The output transformers would eat up most of the budget, but thankfully the EL34 tube is fairly cheap and same goes for the 12au7. 

 

IDK though. An all tube amp can be done, but it rests squarely on the price of transformers in the UK. 

post #37 of 227
Dd you hear project sunrise ii? How did it compare to lyr? For low impedance phones?
post #38 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by techboy View Post

1. The Sunrise II is meant for headphones of 32-300 ohm. 

Horizon is meant for headphones 300-600 ohm.

Ember is meant for headphones 16-600 ohm.

So please learn to do your home work first :)

 

2. Neither of you has actually heard a Sunrise II. And no review says that a Sunrise II isn't at a par with a Lyr. All reviews claim Lyr and Sunrise II to be comparable with the Lyr having much more power. This problem has been solved with Ember. So unless you believe even the Lyr is crap :P

 

3. Since you admit you haven't heard the SR II, and those who have heard all amps based on the same design admin that SR II is light years ahead of the cheaper amps, so your say doesn't hold any weight compared to theirs. :D

 

4. If you hear a SR II or Ember, then I will take your opinion as seriously as those who have heard Indeed as well as SR II.

 

5. Lovely Cube and Lehmann are the same design. However, those who have tried both maintain the fact that the difference in performance is night and day and that the sound isn't even slightly similar. I know this because I read extensively about each and every product I am interested in. Nobody who has tried both considered the Lovely Cube to be worth calling a clone. Though at its price point its one of the better buys.

 

6. Just in the same way, the same design means zilch. SR II is supposed to be significantly ahead of Bravo and Indeed.

 

7. If you want to run 16-600 ohm headphones then a Bravo or Indeed will do fine, a SR II won't. Either get an Ember for that. Or if you want to run 32-300 ohm with more emphasis on sub 120 ohm headphones, then a SR II will be better than both Bravo and Indeed. For those headphones you will get performance similar to a Lyr but much less headroom and power.

 

Warning: About To Get Real with you TechBoy (Click to show)

 

Great but you and your 200 posts and what 1 month of experince... yea kiddo don't even try to go there with me pal. Trust me that design is flawed. And your information is most likely from the buyers website and OFC the buyer will say it can Drive 16 ohm cans, in addition there is synergy. Technically, my oDac has plenty of power to drive my w1000x but will it sound good. Will it sound as good as it could? No proably not., in addition you don't have the listening experince to even make this fight so stop. Every thread you are on you GLOAT about how great the Sunrise amps are

 

They are good, congrats but price wise they are not worth it imo. I sold my Indeed G3 to a fellow, you know what he bought next... a Little Dot 1+ you know how much he LIKES that amp over the G3... alot. He found it to be a clear improvement. So I think tha's been established now

 

and ofc this is all speculation, the point I am making is STOP blinding defeneding the Sun Rise amps, and STOP reommending them to every living thing on head fi, they are to expensive for beginner amps, end of story

 

And on the subject of the Lyr, did we mention it's ENCASED. Those open hybrid tubes are PRONE to noise as well as external damage, another flaw of that design. In addition to the obvious longevity of the Lyr simply due to a better design, I would imagine it is also supported by a real sense of customer service by an established Company, Schiit and Little Dot are both great companies with records of good Cusomter Service, the PS web site looks like it was made 10 years ago and doesn't convey an entirely interested sales team... MAYBE they are great guys who knows,

 

again the point it stop telling every one how much better the Ps 2 is over EVERYTHING else, because it's not better it's DIFFERENT. 

 

 

post #39 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrollDragon View Post

No. I just answered the questions that the OP had asked.

Then you came in here spouting your Garage1217 fanboi foolishness and ended up adding two pages of wothless info to the op's thread.

 

This really grows old and it's time for a moderator to prune out the OT sales pitches of equipment suggestions that don't meet with the OP's original post.

 

I'm done here, this is starting to have shades of the Z-Man...

Thank you. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tjj226 Angel View Post

I have heard the project sunrise, and who ever thinks the sound is comparable to the lyr needs to go AB them together. 

 

The millet is actually a slightly better design, but the nice thing is that the 12au7 mod actually adds a decent amount of warmth to it. Plus you can build it by using point to point soldering rather than trying to use those silly circuit boards that cost a bit of money. If you have the patience for it, you can also research the parts needed for the millet and source much higher grade parts for it. 

 

All that being said. The millet isn't all that great either. Don't get me wrong, the millet sounds fantastic for under 100 pounds/dollars, but at the 200 pound mark, I wonder if something like a simple EL34 with a 12au7 preamp tube could be done. The output transformers would eat up most of the budget, but thankfully the EL34 tube is fairly cheap and same goes for the 12au7. 

 

IDK though. An all tube amp can be done, but it rests squarely on the price of transformers in the UK. 

And once again, my point on the money. I liked my Millet and I bought it used with extra tubes for $120, heck I sold my Millet with exxtra Tubes for $70. So there are plenty of ppl on the tread who enjoy selling thier old gear for less than they paid which means that you OP get a great choice of budget amps and you can make a new fried who can teach you a lot.

 

The fellow I'm buying my Little Dot 1+ from has helped me ALOT to see the good and bad in the amp he is selling, he didn't just pitch the amp to me to sell. But seriously answered my questions and concerns, my discussion with him has taught me a lot about Hybrid Amps in general. So I'd recommend you buy from a user on head fi, just to get that connection. You'd be getting a good deal and making a new friend!

 

An there are plenty of people selling Indeed G3s, Little Dot 1+ and Bravos, all of them who where in you shoes at one point :D 

 

So happy shopping to you! 

post #40 of 227

Okay. I've owned the LD I+, A fully modded Bravo V2, Sunrise II, and Ember before. The Garage1217 gear is in an entirely different league than the LD and Bravo are. Please stop talking about fanboyism or whatever until you've heard the amps. As far as the power issue, you keep harping on the Sunrise but the LD and V2 both do not power high impedance cans much better. 

 

As far as noise and damage due to the open design, I have not had any noise issues with the Ember/Sunrise at all despite having a plasma tv, computer, and a router  within 10 ft of the ember. There is a 3 year warranty on all garage1217 gear so on the off chance that it does break getting it fixed is not a concern and they have excellent customer service.

 

Moral of the story, if the op wants something for their current cans, the psii is the best bet because the power specs just aren't going to be there for an amp to drive high and low impedance phones in that price range and the psii drives lower impedance cans better than the other options mentioned. If the op wants something to last for a long time, a Project Ember is a great option if expanding the price range is a choice. 

post #41 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by techboy View Post

I haven't. But I have already posted above impressions of people who have heard above. 

 

From the Posting Guidelines:

 

 

Quote:
Please don't recommend equipment you don't own or otherwise don't have a reasonable amount of familiarity with. You wouldn't recommend someone a car you've never driven or suggest someone live in a country you haven't been to, so recommending headphones and equipment you haven't owned or used is unhelpful. Even if you've seen the same comments about something from a dozen members, save discussion of that if you're intending to buy it yourself.

 

Please do not suggestions about amps to people without direct familiarity any more.

post #42 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mshenay View Post

Thanks Troll, as I've said like a dozen times. The SunRise II not that great. Get out of here with that crap. 

 

OP get your self a cheapo Millet Max Starving Student Amp, one with a gain switch would work really well with low Gain cans, and in a year or so save up for something nicer, like the LD MK IV and a pair of Byer Dt 880 600ohms

 

In addition, I HAVE heard of people driving Dt 990s out of an Indeed G3 [and trust me that thing shoves some serious Voltage] but as I have told me self many times, if I'm going to get a $300 pair of 600 ohms can, it's worth also getting an equally high quality amp to drive them. Till then my Dr 880 Pro 250's enjoy the Hybrid Tubes! 

 

There is also once again, the Little Dot 1, which should drive low impedance and Middle [250 300 ohm] cans sufficently well. Not sure what Tubes are compitable with both the LD IV and 1+ 

No offense - I agree with most of what you've been saying.  I'm also gratified to see that Currawong threw a penalty flag.

 

However, this is confusing I know, but ...   There is a Millet Hybrid, the latest version referred to as revMH.  The revMH version of the Millett Hybrid was designed/developed by Drew Dunn (drewd) and Nate Maher (n_maher - a mod on Head-Fi).  The design was originally published in Audio Xpress magazine by Pete Millett - username "pmillett" on Head-Fi.  Just an FYI, but he is the current designer of the Apex amps available on TTVJ.  Anyway, Colin Toole (cetoole on Head-Fi) went further with the Millett Hybrid design and designed the Millet Hybrid MAX, which was essentially the Millet Hybrid circuit with full-size heat sinks on the PCB, a fully linear-regulated power supply, and a relay-delay on the headphone connection - all on the PCB.  Later on, cetoole modified the power supply for greater performance and shrunk the design to fit into the Millet Hybrid MiniMAX, the prototype of which is my avatar above.  Finally, he designed the Millett MOSFET-MAX, which was the Millett MAX using MOSFETs biased to very high currents and included a BantamDAC or GrubDAC directly on the PCB with relay switching between inputs.

 

A few years ago, Pete Millett came out with a design he called the Starving Student.  Again, Nate Maher was involved as the first builder besides Pete and their posts formed the beginning of the Starving Student - later referred to as the SSMH, or Starving Student Millett Hybrid.  It was a total departure from the Millett Hybrid family mentioned above, in that it used 19J6 tubes with a surplus Cisco switcher power supply of 48VDC.  All of the Millett Hybrid family above use strictly low-voltage space-charge tubes: 12AE6, 12FM6, and 12FK6, with a 24-27VDC power supply.  The Starving Student's 19J6 tubes have a 19V heater supply and plates that are rated at for at least 200V.  So, the similarity is probably closer to the SOHA and its derivatives, in that tubes are used at voltages well below their plate ratings and paired in a hybrid form with a solid state output buffer.  In the case of the Starving Student, that output buffer happened to be a pair of MOSFETs biased by the tube heaters - a really ingenious solution that saved parts count and cost.  In fact early on, I referred to Pete Millett's Starving Student creation as a Tube CMoy.

 

At some point, the SSMH became so popular that a Head-Fi user built them and sold them through Whiplash Audio.  For a time, the Millet Hybrid MiniMAX was also sold through Whiplash Audio.  A short while after that, Dsavitsk (ECP Audio) designed a PCB implementation of the SSMH.  These were sold for awhile through Beezar until the supply of 19J6 tubes dried up.  I still have quite a time answering e-mails and other questions about whether there will be anymore SSMH PCB kits.  Unfortunately, unless there are some 19J6 tubes found in the hundreds somewhere, no - there won't be anymore PCB's, at least based on the original 19J6 tubes.

 

So anyway, just to be clear -

1. Millett Hybrid

2. Millett Hybrid MAXed

3. Millett Hybrid MiniMAX

4. Millett Hybrid MOSFET-MAX

5. Starving Student Millett Hybrid

 

Those are all different amps.  However, the first 4 are based on low-voltage, space-charge tubes - the 12AE6, 12FM6, and 12FK6.  The Starving Student is different from all of them and is based on the 19J6.  There are some 12AU7 versions of the Starving Student available, but not as kits and not in the numbers of the original. Part of this is because the 12AU7 may be the most used tube in headphone amps, period, while the 19J6 was never used for anything having to do with headphones, as far as I know.  So, it's easy to design/build something a lot more elaborate than a Starving Student with 12AU7 tubes.  The 12AU7 is a much more expensive tube, too.  One of the biggest selling points - early on - was that the 19J6 was a $2 tube.  That all changed as the SSMH got more popular and the supply of 19J6 tubes dried up.

 

Just a footnote, but there is an amp using the 6J6, the same tube as the 19J6 but with 6V heaters - it's the Dsavitsk/Beezar Torpedo.  6J6 tubes are also $2 tubes, but they number in the tens of thousands at several tube suppliers and are not going to disappear any time soon.

 

I know that was a mouthful, but maybe it cleared some things up. wink.gif

 

P.S. Just a follow-on comment - in my experience I've tested literally thousands of tubes.  It is very unlikely - perhaps a handful out of a hundred - where a single, dual-triode tube has both triodes that match.  They're almost always different values - sometimes wildly different.  That's why you almost always see a tube per channel in most amps.  The triodes are tied together in parallel, so that the differing output capabilities of each triode are averaged for each tube.  An amp based on one tube is very likely going to always experience some channel imbalance.  You can even things out somewhat with an adjustable bias, but the higher-output triode is always going to react more strongly to musical peaks, transients, etc.  (IOW, single-tube amps may not be optimum - IMHO.)


Edited by tomb - 8/16/13 at 8:30pm
post #43 of 227

I call for that post to be made into a Wiki/article. smile.gif

post #44 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Currawong View Post

I call for that post to be made into a Wiki/article. smile.gif
Seconded.
Very informative, thanks for clearing all this up.
post #45 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrollDragon View Post

Seconded.
Very informative, thanks for clearing all this up.

thank you for the clarification I know only a little bit about the different variations in between each of the militet amps. so as a former owner its nice to get a more clear understanding of exactly what I had either way any amp from that family within the price range should be good for the op. I had some variation of a millet 12 ua7 with the gain switch and full-size heat syncs
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