Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Headphones (full-size) › MrSpeakers Alpha Dog Revealed! - The World's First Production 3D-Printed Headphones
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

MrSpeakers Alpha Dog Revealed! - The World's First Production 3D-Printed Headphones - Page 406

post #6076 of 7930
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyyyeman View Post
 

Don't know about use with the AD specifically but according to Drew at Moon, per his video, the Black Dragon tends to smooth the highs just a bit and produces a slightly fuller bass. The Blue Dragon is neutral while the all silver Silver Dragon tends to add a bit of sparkle to the top end.  However, if you're unsure of the use of the Black Dragon, suggest you contact Drew right away to get his opinion before the cable is constructed -  which only takes a day, so time is of the essence.  Check out his video too (think it was the Video #2 which discussed the characteristics of the cables, as well as the text on the site).

 

....

 

I believe I have perceived differences between cables, but I still can't help but cringe when I read something like this.  Simple changes in FR (i.e. alleged smoothing highs, filling out bass, adding sparkle) would be measurable.  Despite the widespread availability of precision audio measurement equipment, or even freeware like diffmaker, no cable manufacturer or enthusiast has ever published anything demonstrating that a short run cable can have this sort of impact on the sound.  In fact, many reputable cable makers acknowledge that cables cannot have this sort of impact on sound.  

 

Provided it doesn't all boil down to psychoacoustics, my sense is that we probably just haven't developed the technology or measurement techniques necessary to identify the differences that do result from different cable designs.  But the advertising language really does need to change to conform to science if the audio industry is going to maintain its integrity.

post #6077 of 7930
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrspeakers View Post
 

I was actually about to post this when I saw the question...  We have been delayed for almost 1.5 weeks on shipments.  

 

We had a lot of rain a week ago and in San Diego and lamely enough to our community rain = ice on the roads.  Since we don't seem capable of driving on wet roads, our paint shop had a surge in repair work and has been delayed getting our parts to us.  

 

We have a) a second painter coming online this week and b) our own paint shop coming online next week, so we'll have hopefully eliminated this as an issue.  This is delaying us about 1-2 weeks, but when we come back online our capacity will be higher and we should crunch through the backlog pretty quickly.

 

Thanks for the patience!

Thanks, Dan! Now I can stow away my paranoia and make myself a mai-tai. Thanks for the update!

 

-Dave

post #6078 of 7930
Quote:
Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
 

 

I believe I have perceived differences between cables, but I still can't help but cringe when I read something like this.  Simple changes in FR (i.e. alleged smoothing highs, filling out bass, adding sparkle) would be measurable.  Despite the widespread availability of precision audio measurement equipment, or even freeware like diffmaker, no cable manufacturer or enthusiast has ever published anything demonstrating that a short run cable can have this sort of impact on the sound.  In fact, many reputable cable makers acknowledge that cables cannot have this sort of impact on sound.  

 

Provided it doesn't all boil down to psychoacoustics, my sense is that we probably just haven't developed the technology or measurement techniques necessary to identify the differences that do result from different cable designs.  But the advertising language really does need to change to conform to science if the audio industry is going to maintain its integrity.

 

OK, but the intent was not to get into a discussion about cables in general in this thread but to respond to the specific question posed by the member above about his intent to use the Moon Audio Black Dragon cable with the AD. Since he's already purchased the cable, I would assume he thinks cables make a difference sonically, as do I.

post #6079 of 7930

i, like aptly named skeptic, am dubious about most cable claims. sorry, the evidence just isn't there, IMO. BUT, i am a big proponent of cables serving very important utilitarian roles - like aesthetics and transportability. i made my portable cable to 1. make it easier to lug around the ADs if i chose to do so and 2. give it a little bit of prettiness. i definitely achieved 1 and it's subjective whether or not i accomplished 2.

post #6080 of 7930
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by headwhacker View Post
 

Got any detailed impression for this combo?

 

Originally Posted by MattTCG View Post
 

+1 How did the x5 pair with the AD?

 

To my ears, in terms of tonal balance, I actually think these two are a very good match. To my experience the X5 was somewhat neutral or maybe just slightly warmer of neutral and balances out quite well with AD's. There's definitely sufficient driving oomph in the amp of the X5s for the ADs. There are some limitations though such as it hasn't maximised the AD's capability present soundstage. I won't say that it's very closed but some of the other DAC/Amp combos I have do present a wider stage with these cans.

 

Those component combos though are naturally bigger, more expensive, and more cumbersome. As such if one were to be looking for a combined package, to me this is a very good "value for money $1000 package" where I'd define the value to be a refined audiophile level quality SQ.

 

P.S. I've not owned, demoed (for long term) nor tried the iBasso DX50 or X3, etc. Those could well be decent DAPs for the ADs too but for now the X5/ADs would, to my opinion, be near the peak of the increasing marginal returns curve.

post #6081 of 7930

^^ Thanks for sharing that. I'll look more into the x5. 

post #6082 of 7930

domo arigato gozaimasu Anakchan

post #6083 of 7930
Quote:
Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
 

I believe I have perceived differences between cables, but I still can't help but cringe when I read something like this.  Simple changes in FR (i.e. alleged smoothing highs, filling out bass, adding sparkle) would be measurable.  Despite the widespread availability of precision audio measurement equipment, or even freeware like diffmaker, no cable manufacturer or enthusiast has ever published anything demonstrating that a short run cable can have this sort of impact on the sound.  In fact, many reputable cable makers acknowledge that cables cannot have this sort of impact on sound.  

 

Provided it doesn't all boil down to psychoacoustics, my sense is that we probably just haven't developed the technology or measurement techniques necessary to identify the differences that do result from different cable designs.  But the advertising language really does need to change to conform to science if the audio industry is going to maintain its integrity.

 

When you consider that cables themselves do have different mechanical and electrical properties (shielding quality or capacitance, impedance, etc.), I don't think it's unreasonable to assume some of these variations can slightly change how a driver performs, at the very least. I would not be surprised if we could find measurable differences, but we just haven't developed the equipment/test methods enough to show it, or commonly used headphone measurements are not the right sort of measurements to show what changes are actually going on. Either way, I still consider cables near the bottom of the list in terms of audible changes...better to focus on other aspects first.

post #6084 of 7930

This conversation is probably best continued on the Sound Science section but I'd be surprised if no one has done any measurements on cable differences there or in some other forum.

 

However I am keen to hear thoughts on 3rd party cables used on the ADs...especially balanced cables driven by portable balanced amps (Rx Mk3, Duet, Theorem 720, SR-71B, etc.). I'm particularly curious on any impact balanced cables have on the ADs and the different changes on sonics based on cable construction (i.e. OFC, OCC copper/silver, silver/gold mix, silver/copper mix).

post #6085 of 7930
Quote:
Originally Posted by hans030390 View Post
 

 

When you consider that cables themselves do have different mechanical and electrical properties (shielding quality or capacitance, impedance, etc.), I don't think it's unreasonable to assume some of these variations can slightly change how a driver performs, at the very least. I would not be surprised if we could find measurable differences, but we just haven't developed the equipment/test methods enough to show it, or commonly used headphone measurements are not the right sort of measurements to show what changes are actually going on. Either way, I still consider cables near the bottom of the list in terms of audible changes...better to focus on other aspects first.

not to beat a dead horse or add to the flame or whatever the appropriate metaphor is...but IF we were able to find significant differences in whatever measurement we use, there would still be the even greater leap to whether those differences are even audible or detectable in any appreciable way by the human ear/brain. ok, that's the last i'll say about this. one thing i do agree with is that focusing on other aspects is probably more important. 

post #6086 of 7930

Audibility is, of course, an important factor to discuss...it's just not a clearly cut topic. Some people legitimately are better or more skilled at hearing (in both frequency and time domain), often true of professionally trained musicians. Some people have different hearing sensitivities, though I'd doubt to huge degrees. Our ears and brains are also both simultaneously really good at picking out very, very small changes and differences, and yet also good at fooling ourselves into thinking we hear better than we often truly do. Isn't it great?

 

FWIW, one example that fits into my thoughts is the Fidelio X1 stock cable. Tyll wrote a bit about how its impedance slightly affected the sound vs. lower impedance cables. I don't think he made comparison measurements, but it's worth considering. In this case, it's equatable to an amp with a higher output impedance, which has been tested and measured for on headphones (granted, the cable's impedance was still quite low, so it's a very subtle version of this).

 

Cables seem to be much more important in other parts of the audio chain than they do for driving speakers or headphones. Shielding can directly reduce EMI/RFI (I have measured for this), thus improving the audible performance of DACs and amps. Impedance mismatching can cause reflections in DACs and transports. Etc. Etc. Cables matter, but you have to consider the context. For headphones? Maybe worth checking out if you're really bored.


Edited by hans030390 - 3/6/14 at 3:05am
post #6087 of 7930

I wondered if anything became of the fedex contest/grant. 

post #6088 of 7930
Quote:
Originally Posted by hans030390 View Post
 

Let me see if I can explain it. The dot does a good job smoothing out treble peaks without reducing the overall treble. The felt discs are used to attenuate the upper mids and treble in a broad sense, if you want that. I preferred a different, lighter material disc I made for myself when testing the AD the 2nd time (I wanted less attenuation), but the felt Dan is using works well for its purposes and will likely be well received for those looking for that type of change. I think the majority of folks will be most satisfied with just the dot.

 

I'm not able to explain how every different frequency and its amplitude affects what we hear, but you do have to understand that these "other" aspects of sound, such as soundstaging, are directly related to, but not always entirely explained by, the frequency response and other measurable aspects of the device. I believe a blacker background was another improvement Dan mentioned.

 

For me, I clearly heard treble peaks when I originally sampled the Alpha Dog. These peaks would amplify certain aspects of the music, and it follows those amplified aspects would stick out more (think more in-your-face...like a Grado, kinda). For example, certain cymbals sounded detached from the drum kit and were now placed directly next to my ear. Highly distorted guitars were extra aggressive, grainy, and, again, sounded as though they were right next to your ear.

 

After attenuating those peaks via EQ, everything that stuck out like a sore thumb took a big step back and got in line with everything else. You could say the soundstage didn't really increase as a whole, but these amplified aspects tended to cover up a lot of soundstaging and imaging elements or, at the very least, make the imaging and soundstage seem a bit disjointed.

 

It could be just that...that the peaks amplified certain elements of the music that make many instruments seem closer to you. It could also be that those areas happen to generally contain a lot of information related to the acoustic space, instrument placement, etc. If too amplified or attenuated, you might be able to see how that could start to mess with the perception of imaging and soundstage. But, as I've said, I can't explain exactly which frequencies tend to contain exactly what sort of information...I have a vague feeling for it myself, and it definitely varies with what you're listening to.

 

These peaks also created a sort of "grainy" sound on a lot of instruments to my ears (think a TV with the sharpness set too high). Many perceive this as additional detail, and I can see why many would like that. I thought the peaks were strong enough to overpower much of the music and give it an overall grainy quality vs. just an isolated, grainy quality. In a sense, you could think of this as a grayer background due to the grain/noise. Smoothing out and attenuating these areas help alleviate this and give a sense of a blacker background. Or, depending on your music material, other audio gear, and personal hearing sensitivities, you might just hear it as a loss of detail.

 

Again, a lot of this depends on what you listen to. I came across many tracks that sounded barely any different with/without EQ in those spots I found troublesome. Then you have to account for driver variation, personal preferences and sensitivities, and so on.

 

You can always try running your Alpha Dog through SineGen (not too loud!). That can help you identify peaks in the sound, likely a bit above 4KHz and 8KHz on the AD. Play around with a graphical parametric EQ (like EasyQ) when listening to music. See what happens if you tone those spots down...or turn them up! Try a wide variety of tracks. That should give you some sort of sense whether or not you might benefit from smoother treble on your Alpha Dog.

 

You could also attempt to rig up your own version of the dot tweak and get a rough approximation for what it will do, though you'd want to use a light, easily removable adhesive as to not damage the headphone (i.e. thin strips of double sided tape, put on and pulled off some fabric a few times to reduce adhesiveness). You could try fabrics, felts, open-cell foams, layered materials, etc. Again, rough estimation, basic, and temporary, but if you like the changes, you'll probably like the dot tweak. I'd still recommend EQ first, though, because it's easier and less risky but will still give you a good approximation.

 

I'll be writing up a review for the Alpha Dog in their current state, if you happen to remember my original impressions. It's a small, simple tweak, but the dot literally made the difference for me (uncomfortable to listen to vs. maybe I should buy these).

 

I beg to differ.  I've never heard the T50 RP drivers to sound grainy regardless of how I EQ'd the treble - even with mods I got them very bright - but never grainy.  Not in comparison to say the HD650 and K701, the HD650 is quite grained even though it has a levelled treble, and the K701 is slightly less grained than the HD650 even though the treble was accentuated.  I have never heard a planar driver that sounded grainy no matter the treble response.

post #6089 of 7930

Nothing came of the Fedex.  We did really well on the number of votes but the very non-transparent other part of their process is they review and decide what they'll put in the top 100, and the weight of their internal review vs votes was hidden.  I guess they just didn't like our proposal as we had a lot of votes yet didn't make the top 100.  It seems dog biscuits, brew pubs and custom painted helmet face guards are more interesting than headphones. 

 

:confused_face_2:

 

Thanks so much for the support!  Regardless of the outcome we're forging ahead with the paint system anyhow, but that sure would have helped.  Our new paint gear starts arriving today.

post #6090 of 7930

Sorry to hear that Dan. I was hoping it would worked out for you. I know you will be successful anyway.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Headphones (full-size)
Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Headphones (full-size) › MrSpeakers Alpha Dog Revealed! - The World's First Production 3D-Printed Headphones