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MrSpeakers Alpha Dog Revealed! - The World's First Production 3D-Printed Headphones - Page 204

post #3046 of 9033
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholars View Post
 

Some music sounds worse with a huge soundstage.... Anyway it just seems a bit silly to me saying "these do not sound as open as open headphones, I am going to sell them and go back to open headphones"..... What did you expect? If they could make closed headphones sound like open headphones then there would be no point in having open headphones.... All closed headphones will have reverb from the cups, so you get more bass and a more closed in sound, that is until they invent some sort of black hole inter dimensional material which goes in the headphone cups.....


You're right. It wouldn't make sense to think that the ADs would sound open. It's just that all the impressions at the time I bought them said they sound open. In fact I think I'm the first AD owner to state the opposite.

 

See this quote for example:

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattTCG View Post
 

 

I had them at the same time as the hd650 and Annie. To me, they sound every bit as open and airy as the hd650...possibly even better. They are very close to the Annie which is an impressive feat for a closed hp. 

 

I can't fathom how this statement can be true. I own the HD600, not the HD650 but they should be similar in terms of openness and air. The HD600 sounds significantly more open and airy than the Alpha Dogs, the difference is so big I don't know how one could be mistaken.


Edited by zowki - 10/17/13 at 12:03pm
post #3047 of 9033

Just to make things clearer for the less experienced head-fiers:

 

Soundstage - this is exactly analogous to a stage at a live performance.  You can have six people in a band who perform at gigs in various places.  In one big arena, the stage will be 50 feet wide and the keyboard guy will be way left, the drummers will be way back in the center, and the bass guy will be way right.  Then they go to a small club, and the whole stage is only 20 feet wide and shallower, and you hear the same instruments but they all sound closer.  Different headphones and electronics present different sizes and depths of stages, due to tiny distortions of the signal.

 

Imaging - this is how accurate the positions are presented within the stage.  Really good imaging (such as with the SRH-1840) not only presents the different instruments clearly within the stage, it also present a 3D image of the instrument (provided the recording is that good).

 

Openness - this is the subjective feeling provided by the headphone system, of being in an open space where one is surrounded by sounds.  Even though it is a different use of the word "open", coincidentally it is a quality usually found in open headphones and not in closed headphones.  Within those categories, headphones vary in their amount of openness.

 

Air - this is a subject audio evaluation term that has some similarities with openness, but can still refer to one instrument on one channel.  Air usually implies a clean and strong high end presented with extreme clarity, so each sound is presented in a way that sounds "effortless".  If an audio system cannot produce the sense of "air", then it probably cannot produce any sense of "openness" (the latter referring more to a general sense of space rather than the sound of any one instrument).

 

Any particular headphone or system can have one quality without the others.   For example, some headphones (I think I have read about this in ATs) have openness without good imaging.

 

I hope this is helpful.

post #3048 of 9033
Quote:
Originally Posted by john57 View Post
 

When I tried the Alpha Dog at the RMAF on different amps that Dan has on his table. I found big differences in the soundstage depending on what amp I was using. I was a bit surprised on how much difference amps can make with the Alpha Dog since all three amps that I tried are strong good desktop amps. The Liquid Glass with the Alpha Dog was Wow! The Schiit Lyr which I owned was next and the Burson Conductor was the last as far soundstage is concerned. It seems that the Alpha Dog picks up the differences in amps quite readily.

 

I agree with this. There are plenty of decent priced amps that will really open up the ADs (as well as the MD). I'm not saying it will completely change the headphone, but knowing how revealing the AD is (quite revealing) - variance of upstream gear will most definitely give different results. Note: these changes might not be for the better. 

 

I agree the hype for these headphones is stacked high, but I'm not finding much wrong with this closed headphone. Tonality seems great for an all-around choice and most of the technicalities stack up with the rest of the TOTL headphones. The only disappointments I've experienced so far are the mediocre performing bass adjustment (I haven't and won't touch this again after playing around with it for 10-15 minutes with bad results) and the and that lack of fullness I've grown to love with rock. Both can be attributed to my preferences though so that might be just me. 


Edited by Greed - 10/17/13 at 12:12pm
post #3049 of 9033
Quote:
Originally Posted by zowki View Post
 


You're right. It wouldn't make sense to think that the ADs would sound open. It's just that all the impressions at the time I bought them said they sound open. In fact I think I'm the first AD owner to state the opposite.

 

 

About to be a little abstract here...

 

I think it's wise to give them another week. When things are hyped like this, we build a construct and expectation of that hype, and when that construct is broken, we are obviously disappointed which can exaggerate the pitfalls that we hear. A bit of a defense mechanism, almost. 

 

But a little bit of time, and you'll form an opinion wholly of your own distilled from the effects of hype and betrayal of that hype.

 

Getting a little OT though. I do agree with your personal findings. Going from the ADs to an open headphone was... well... like going from a closed to an open headphone. But I found that once I stopped obsessing over A/Bing and just gave the AD's a good day of listening, it felt pretty adequate. Putting things of opposite characteristics together will exaggerate their differences, which obviously affects perception. Where that lies in your values in the grand scheme of things, of course, is up to you.


Edited by vaed - 10/17/13 at 12:04pm
post #3050 of 9033
Quote:
Originally Posted by zowki View Post
 


You're right. It wouldn't make sense to think that the ADs would sound open. It's just that all the impressions at the time I bought them said they sound open. In fact I think I'm the first AD owner to state the opposite.

 

See this quote for example:

 

 

Welcome to human nature!  :)  when we are still in hyping state with a new toy, we tend to focus more on the + and either unintentionally or even intentionally ignore the negatives.  I must admit that I am no exception to this behavior.  Kudos to you for being up front and honest about what you are experiencing.  I do agree with your evaluation 100% btw.  With that said, AD is still a great achievement by Dan for a closed pair of HPs.

post #3051 of 9033
Quote:
Originally Posted by zowki View Post
 


You're right. It wouldn't make sense to think that the ADs would sound open. It's just that all the impressions at the time I bought them said they sound open. In fact I think I'm the first AD owner to state the opposite.

 

See this quote for example:

 

I agree, there have been a lot of the "wow, these sound open" posts, I don't think it was so far off for you to assume they would sound more open.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kstuart View Post
 

Just to make things clearer for the less experienced head-fiers:

 

Soundstage - this is exactly analogous to a stage at a live performance.  You can have six people in a band who perform at gigs in various places.  In one big arena, the stage will be 50 feet wide and the keyboard guy will be way left, the drummers will be way back in the center, and the bass guy will be way right.  Then they go to a small club, and the whole stage is only 20 feet wide and shallower, and you hear the same instruments but they all sound closer.  Different headphones and electronics present different sizes and depths of stages, due to tiny distortions of the signal.

 

Imaging - this is how accurate the positions are presented within the stage.  Really good imaging (such as with the SRH-1840) not only presents the different instruments clearly within the stage, it also present a 3D image of the instrument (provided the recording is that good).

 

Openness - this is the subjective feeling provided by the headphone system, of being in an open space where one is surrounded by sounds.  Even though it is a different use of the word "open", coincidentally it is a quality usually found in open headphones and not in closed headphones.  Within those categories, headphones vary in their amount of openness.

 

Air - this is a subject audio evaluation term that has some similarities with openness, but can still refer to one instrument on one channel.  Air usually implies a clean and strong high end presented with extreme clarity, so each sound is presented in a way that sounds "effortless".  If an audio system cannot produce the sense of "air", then it probably cannot produce any sense of "openness" (the latter referring more to a general sense of space rather than the sound of any one instrument).

 

Any particular headphone or system can have one quality without the others.   For example, some headphones (I think I have read about this in ATs) have openness without good imaging.

 

I hope this is helpful.

Nice job on this

post #3052 of 9033

I would define "Openness" as "the absence of aknowledgment by your hearing, that the sounds are originating from the headphones". The more open a headphone sounds, the more it sounds like the sound is materializing out of nothing and not affected by anything.

post #3053 of 9033
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholars View Post
 

 

Or just do not expect closed headphones to sound like open headphones....

When people with tons more exerience than you say it does sound like its open and others explain the technology behind a headphone that is responsible for the open sound ... the hype is easily believed. Technology makes the impossible close to possible.

 

So I agree with him you have to see through the hype. I mean who wouldnt hope for the sound of an open phone with the isolation benefits of a closed one.


Edited by grizzlybeast - 10/17/13 at 12:46pm
post #3054 of 9033
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerg View Post
 

I would define "Openness" as "the absence of aknowledgment by your hearing, that the sounds are originating from the headphones". The more open a headphone sounds, the more it sounds like the sound is materializing out of nothing and not affected by anything.

I like this.

post #3055 of 9033
Quote:
Originally Posted by ethan7000 View Post
 

I agree, there have been a lot of the "wow, these sound open" posts, I don't think it was so far off for you to assume they would sound more open.

Uh, it also seems like everyone is forgetting Jude enthusiastically saying something along the lines of, "These are the first closed headphones I've heard that actually sound open!"

post #3056 of 9033
Quote:
Originally Posted by zowki View Post
 

The more I listen to the Alpha Dogs the more I'm disappointed by the lack of soundstage and air. I expected so much more after watching Jude say that it sounds just like an open headphone. To my ears, the Alpha Dog's soundstage is no better than a fairly good closed headphone. I recall even my LFF Paradox had better soundstage. When I switch back to my HD600, I get so much wider soundstage and airer sound.

 

Sorry to go against the hype but this is honestly what I hear and I'm a little disappointed. Everything else about the Alpha Dogs is amazing though.

 

Edit:

Pic of my AD with my HD600 and amps

 

Thanks for posting some honest impressions amongst the lack of impressions in this thread despite people having them for a good week by now.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunneebear View Post
 

What is soundstage?  The HD600 was my favorite for years but to my ears they sounded more wider in a airier sense.  OTOH my CD3000 and 7506 did not have that airiness but a more accurate image of the stage layout or mix.  So more of the time the two closed phones had a wider stage of instrument placement than the HD600.

While listening to music, close your eyes and imagine how the instruments are placed in your head relative to you. A large soundstage could be thought of the instruments playing in a large auditorium as opposed to a small soundstage where instruments are being played in a small room right in your face.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholars View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zowki View Post
 

I'm planning to hold on to the Alpha Dogs for another week and if I still don't like them they will be up for sale. The air and soundstage is too lacking. I'll be going back to open headphones. I wouldn't have been so disappointed if I knew the sound was going to be closed sounding. The lesson, dear reader: lower your expectations when riding the head-fi hype train.

 

Or just do not expect closed headphones to sound like open headphones....

I blame Head-Fi for over-hyping any new "hip" audio product to outrageous degrees of ridiculousness.

 

OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMG

Wah, the soundstage is sooooo big it's amazing!!!! *drools*

post #3057 of 9033

Just reading the definitions of open won't get you the full understanding. You have to hear it. Surprisingly to me,  I have heard sound files that are engineered for hp's that sound like the  sounds are outside of the headphones while using a cheap closed pair.

 

To me open just sounds like the sounds aren't acoustically trapped, but free; like they do originate from the headphone but extend beyond the headphone until they fade out in the air past the headphone. Though that simply states what happens that is exactly what you hear.

 

by now I would expect a full detailed review of these but I also suspect that people aren't as wowed by them as they thought they would be so they refrain from bucking the hype.

 

The main goal behind the making of this headphone was to make it sound open in opposition to MAdlust's posts, and like a true reference hp. With Matt refraining from posting openness and sounstage impressions and others not posting makes me think it might have come short of half of those ambitions. Someone should buy this headphone if they want a goodlooking, comfortable, reference, nuetral , smooth , clear, and realistinc sounding closed headphone. Nothing more or less.  


Edited by grizzlybeast - 10/17/13 at 1:04pm
post #3058 of 9033
Quote:
Originally Posted by kstuart View Post
 

Just to make things clearer for the less experienced head-fiers:

 

Soundstage - this is exactly analogous to a stage at a live performance.  You can have six people in a band who perform at gigs in various places.  In one big arena, the stage will be 50 feet wide and the keyboard guy will be way left, the drummers will be way back in the center, and the bass guy will be way right.  Then they go to a small club, and the whole stage is only 20 feet wide and shallower, and you hear the same instruments but they all sound closer.  Different headphones and electronics present different sizes and depths of stages, due to tiny distortions of the signal.

 

Imaging - this is how accurate the positions are presented within the stage.  Really good imaging (such as with the SRH-1840) not only presents the different instruments clearly within the stage, it also present a 3D image of the instrument (provided the recording is that good).

 

Openness - this is the subjective feeling provided by the headphone system, of being in an open space where one is surrounded by sounds.  Even though it is a different use of the word "open", coincidentally it is a quality usually found in open headphones and not in closed headphones.  Within those categories, headphones vary in their amount of openness.

 

Air - this is a subject audio evaluation term that has some similarities with openness, but can still refer to one instrument on one channel.  Air usually implies a clean and strong high end presented with extreme clarity, so each sound is presented in a way that sounds "effortless".  If an audio system cannot produce the sense of "air", then it probably cannot produce any sense of "openness" (the latter referring more to a general sense of space rather than the sound of any one instrument).

 

Any particular headphone or system can have one quality without the others.   For example, some headphones (I think I have read about this in ATs) have openness without good imaging.

 

I hope this is helpful.


I hate defining "air," "openness," and "imaging."

 

In theory, your definition of imaging is good, but no one here knows where the instruments are truly supposed to be in a recording so therefore the concept of "good imaging" is invalid. How do you know X sound is supposed to sound 10 meters away, 40 degrees to the left, or 1 meter away, 90 degrees from the left?

 

I use "openness" analogously with "air."

 

I replace "air" with a large soundstage. HD800, K 701, and similar headphones are all known to be airy. They also all have a large soundstage. Something like the LCD-2 has a very congested-sounding soundstage, especially for an open-back headphone so I characterise its sound as being not-airy.

post #3059 of 9033

The AD is very revealing of differences between amps.  The reason I like to have so many amps on hand is to give people this flavor and experience at events.

 

That said, I will also share this.  I had one reviewer listening on one amp and another on a different amp.  They traded places, the first reviewer said A is clearly better and walked away.  The other reviewer immediately said B is better.  Interestingly at shows and meets, people go 50/50 down the line on the amps.


Edited by mrspeakers - 10/17/13 at 12:58pm
post #3060 of 9033
Quote:
Originally Posted by grizzlybeast View Post
 

When people with tons more exerience than you say it does sound like its open and others explain the technology behind a headphone that is responsible for the open sound ... the hype is easily believed. Technology makes the impossible close to possible.

 

So I agree with him you have to see through the hype. I mean who wouldnt hope for the sound of an open phone with the isolation benefits of a closed one.


Well said grizzlybeast.

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