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Shure SE846 Impressions Thread - Page 224

post #3346 of 17623
Quote:
Originally Posted by truckdriver View Post
 

So,  if a bass instrument doesn't produce a note, is it still boosted? Would a synthesizer be boosted even if it crosses the spectrum from bass frequencies into mid and high frequencies?:P

 

Nope. There wouldn't be that awkward "bloat" sound where the midbass artifacts of midrange instruments are inflated. A keyboard would sound fairly even from bottom to top with a light tilt toward the lower end. Shure made their crossovers INCREDIBLY well.

post #3347 of 17623
Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeGuyDude View Post
 

 

Nope. There wouldn't be that awkward "bloat" sound where the midbass artifacts of midrange instruments are inflated. A keyboard would sound fairly even from bottom to top with a light tilt toward the lower end. Shure made their crossovers INCREDIBLY well.

 

So it's not the instrument itself after all, eh? It sounds like it is according to the dynamic range of a particular bass note (as dictated by the music).

post #3348 of 17623
Quote:
Originally Posted by truckdriver View Post
 

 

So it's not the instrument itself after all, eh? It sounds like it is according to the dynamic range of a particular bass note (as dictated by the music).

 

Dude.

 

You would have to be a lunatic to think it's possible for a headphone to actually separate the instruments in the way the mixer does in the studio or at a concert. That's not even possible, it'd be like asking if you can take off someone's halloween mask in a photograph so you can see who was wearing it. Come on dude, use your dang head.

 

I'm talking about the end result from the listener's side.

post #3349 of 17623
Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeGuyDude View Post
 

 

Dude.

 

You would have to be a lunatic to think it's possible for a headphone to actually separate the instruments in the way the mixer does in the studio or at a concert. That's not even possible, it'd be like asking if you can take off someone's halloween mask in a photograph so you can see who was wearing it. Come on dude, use your dang head.

 

I'm talking about the end result from the listener's side.

 

I meant volume range. There's nothing special about the crossovers that account for the bass emphasis. The midbass is slightly understated.

post #3350 of 17623
Quote:
Originally Posted by truckdriver View Post
 

 

I meant volume range. There's nothing special about the crossovers that account for the bass emphasis. The midbass is slightly understated.

 

That's... that's because crossovers are a matter of where driver A stops and driver B begins. Shure set theirs brilliantly so the lowest driver doesn't bleed into the mids, or even the midbass, and so that the mid and midbass drivers aren't left sounding bloated thanks to reproducing lower frequencies. 

 

Crossovers can't "account for bass emphasis" because that is not at all what a "crossover" is. What a crossover can account for is the phenomenal separation and clarity between the ranges. If you've ever tuned a car stereo system you know the massive difference that can happen between setting your crossovers 20Hz in the wrong direction. 

 

The point in that post was that Shure's crossovers are perfectly tuned so that bass emphasis can happen without it having any artificiality to it that you find in single/dual driver setups. 


Edited by SomeGuyDude - 6/16/14 at 4:09pm
post #3351 of 17623

The Shure low frequency solution wasn't electrical - not a crossover used by the myriad IEMs we all listen to - they were able to roll off the mid-bass and higher by the porting solution - a way of crossing over the lows without the parasitic loss inherent in passive crossovers.

post #3352 of 17623
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivabign View Post
 

The Shure low frequency solution wasn't electrical - not a crossover used by the myriad IEMs we all listen to - they were able to roll off the mid-bass and higher by the porting solution - a way of crossing over the lows without the parasitic loss inherent in passive crossovers.

 

Exactly. It's friggin' phenomenal. And the fact that every single SE846 is laser-welded by one craftsman just makes me that much prouder to have these things.

post #3353 of 17623

[QUOTE=SomeGuyDude]

That's... that's because crossovers are a matter of where driver A stops and driver B begins. Shure set theirs brilliantly so the lowest driver doesn't bleed into the mids, or even the midbass, and so that the mid and midbass drivers aren't left sounding bloated thanks to reproducing lower frequencies. 

 

Crossovers can't "account for bass emphasis" because that is not at all what a "crossover" is. What a crossover can account for is the phenomenal separation and clarity between the ranges. If you've ever tuned a car stereo system you know the massive difference that can happen between setting your crossovers 20Hz in the wrong direction. 

 

The point in that post was that Shure's crossovers are perfectly tuned so that bass emphasis can happen without it having any artificiality to it that you find in single/dual driver setups.[/QUOTE]

 

This explains things very nicely!

 

A friend of mine back in Perth is currently studying with the School of Audio Engineering whereas little old me has very little by way of such technological knowledge, hence there is no way I could explain such things.  For this I thank you!

 

Edit:  dang HTML code.


Edited by Black Label - 6/16/14 at 4:27pm
post #3354 of 17623

Well, when I saw “instruments” (not the frequencies) were boosted. I responded jokingly. But, however folks want to describe it, --it's all good.

 

I have, in fact, tuned a car stereo system a few decades ago. I had a Clarion crossover system in addition to one amp with its own crossover. Oh, and a couple of small crossovers for some front bounded tweeters. At one point, I also had a ported bandpass sub-box, but I sold it early on and went with a monstrosity that nearly covered my entire trunk.

 

Anyway, the 846 is good at what it does and works as advertised.


Edited by truckdriver - 6/16/14 at 4:44pm
post #3355 of 17623

Please tell me there is not going to be an exam on this later. Because if so you can just give me the D now. Although for  the first time I may for  a few minutes  sort of understand what a crossover does. (as I said you really want to give me the D now. 2-24 hours from now I will be right back in F territory )

 

Ah Science and reason. I do love it even if I cannot really understand it.

 

I eagerly await a future discussion on principles of Quantum Mechanics and how such things as Dark Matter and Dark energy can effect music.

 

I am so Thankful I was born in the latter half of the 20th century or for that matter any time after 1920 at the earliest.

 

No discussion of crossovers in the 12th century

post #3356 of 17623

It's true, the acoustics and engineering behind the SE846 are something to behold. It's a huge separation between these and, for example, my beloved Pandoras. Whereas those cans just have the speakers up against your ears, IEMs have a big housing unit that must be dealt with. In the case of the SE846, the SOB's put in a multi-chambered filter system and gave the bottom end a passageway that's about 4 inches long (huge considering the tiny housing) without giving it any awkward or artificial echo/reverb. 

 

QUICK LESSON

 

In any kind of sound system with multiple drivers, the whole idea of it isn't just to cram a bunch of speakers in there, it's to make the sound clearer by giving a determined range of audio its own dedicated driver. You know this if you have desktop speakers or home theater speakers. The subwoofers only make bass, there are mids for the middle area, and then the tiny tweeters that make all the high pitches.

 

However, it's not like our laptops or DACs have any idea how many speakers there are (think of the various plugs on a car head unit or the console of a home theater system), so the crossovers are a little piece of hardware that effectively clamps off the frequency range for each little speaker. For example, your subwoofer will handle everything under 120Hz, a midrange speaker from 120Hz to 2KHz, and the tweeter from 2KHz and above.

 

This is great because the reason audio usually gets muddy is from trying to reproduce an entire spectrum of sound from one speaker. Think about a flat surface that has to vibrate 30 times per second. Look up a subwoofer video to see a speaker moving at that frequency. Now think about having to make that thing also be vibrating at ten THOUSAND times per second WHILE it's doing that. It's incredibly difficult. Splitting up the duties makes each speaker clearer and louder because it's only worried about a specific range.

 

If you want to visualize it, move your arm up and down slowly but steadily, about once per second. That's a subwoofer. Now do that while "tapping" the air with your hand in smaller vibrations, say, 10 times for each one "cycle" of your arm. That is, in effect, a speaker playing a low and a high frequency at the same time. That's how speakers play music. You can see why it'd be easier to have one speaker doing the slow movement and another doing the fast. 

 

BUT, the handoff isn't like a sharp chop. The low speaker won't play 120Hz at full volume and then nothing at 121Hz nor will the midrange play 121Hz full with nothing at 120Hz. There's a "slope" to it. What Shure apparently did was start the subbass slope at around 75Hz for the lowest driver and have it drop off very quickly from there. That's incredibly unusual for a headphone but it's almost certainly why the things have such incredible sub-bass: it's a subwoofer, not a "bass driver" in the way most would do it. So that little guy fires on all cylinders during the low lows, and then does nothing above that, making it almost like a beefed up SE535 with a subwoofer. Nothing changed, just ADDED.


Edited by SomeGuyDude - 6/16/14 at 5:16pm
post #3357 of 17623
Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeGuyDude View Post
 

It's true, the acoustics and engineering behind the SE846 are something to behold. It's a huge separation between these and, for example, my beloved Pandoras. Whereas those cans just have the speakers up against your ears, IEMs have a big housing unit that must be dealt with. In the case of the SE846, the SOB's put in a multi-chambered filter system and gave the bottom end a passageway that's about 4 inches long (huge considering the tiny housing) without giving it any awkward or artificial echo/reverb. 

 

QUICK LESSON

......

Crap there is going to be an Exam....Cliff Notes? Better still can I copy off of you?

post #3358 of 17623
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty Burns View Post
 

Crap there is going to be an Exam....Cliff Notes? Better still can I copy off of you?

 

You're allowed one note card, front and back. And don't try and cheat by printing it out of a computer. >:(

post #3359 of 17623
One caveat to your otherwise excellent description is that instead of one BA handling the mids and highs as in the 535, the 846 has two.

I believe calling the 846 a successor to the 535 sells the 846 short. The SE846 is in a class by itself in the Shure IEM line up and while there are other great or even greater IEMs it is certainly is a revolution for Shure.
post #3360 of 17623
Quote:
Originally Posted by spook76 View Post

One caveat to your otherwise excellent description is that instead of one BA handling the mids and highs as in the 535, the 846 has two.

I believe calling the 846 a successor to the 535 sells the 846 short. The SE846 is in a class by itself in the Shure IEM line up and while there are other great or even greater IEMs it is certainly is a revolution for Shure.

 

True, true. It's a quad driver. 

 

You do have a point about the 846 being such a new thing. As far as I know, it's the only IEM that does the chambering effect. There are plenty with filter systems, but the way it does the subbass is truly unique. It's definitely a trip. 

 

I mean, my high end IEM experience is limited just to these and the SE535, so I can only speak on what I know about the DESIGN of these versus others. I just know that they sound sublime and have some awesome engineering in them that others don't. 

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