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Digital music transmission via USB - Page 2

post #16 of 58
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvw View Post

Try and ask what jitter sounds like. I bet you these cable experts do not have a clue.

 

I bet the folks in the Coffee-fi forum could answer that question! tongue.gif

 

Cheers

post #17 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by ab initio View Post

 

I bet the folks in the Coffee-fi forum could answer that question! tongue.gif

 

Cheers

post #18 of 58
Wow! We're back to audibility again. The universe really is circular.
post #19 of 58
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post

Wow! We're back to audibility again. The universe really is circular.

I think at this point we're just making jokes about it, although when people don't use the emoticons, it can be tough to decipher sarcasm from fanaticism

 

Cheers

post #20 of 58
I have to say, as much as I like the Sound Science forum, I've seen way too many misleading and unclearly written posts here. When people go into complicated technical descriptions without providing a clear summary of what they're talking about or putting the facts in context of audibility, it's no wonder that people believe the hogwash that jitter junkies and cable connoisseurs lay down.
post #21 of 58

I've been here awhile. I don't think any kind of explanation will sway anybody. Many here are just followers and just looking to brag; how much they spent. The simplest thing is power cable and fuses. This absolutely has no relationship to audibility. Yet there are people that claim the distortion in power line caused an audible difference. I was at a cable booth in CES one year. The person at the booth told me their cable solved SWRR. If you try explaining the science, the typical response are:

 

1. You need to spend $500 before you can have an opinion.

2. Your equipment is not expensive enough

3. Your hearing sucks.

 

There are many people believe silver and copper sound different. You need $$$ cable to get the right sound/synergy. No one even care about what is the conductor on an IC or the equipment. Inside the chips, the conductor is Aluminum and the bond wire is gold. The recent price  increase in gold forced a lot of the manufacturer replace gold with copper. I have yet to see a thread discussing change in signature between 2009 and 2012.  This is a real double blind test.

 

How do you explain to people that are anti-science. The North Pole is a lake now. But you still have people believe that's a hoax. Of course there are also people believe the earth is 6000 years old despite the fact. Sound science forum was created because people don't want to be bothered by facts. Audiophiles like their flowery language. Kind of reminds me of cigar and wine reviews.

post #22 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by ab initio View Post

The issue came up that digital signals are really analog signals---to which I disagreed and provided an counterargument. Obviously, this conversation remained at a high level without getting into any actual details, and as a consequence, is full of broad sweeping generalizations.

 

This is misleading description -- maybe my post wasn't clear. The concept, originally brought up in discussion with the designer of the Sonicweld Diverter, JayDee. is that from the point of view of circuit design digital signals are electrically like an analogue square wave. I haven't yet found the exact quote, but AFAIK it was in one of JayDee's posts on the forums.  It doesn't address the usefulness, if any, of caring about with modern DAC designs.

 

The point is though, while I wondered originally how it can be more complicated than the data arriving intact or not, especially after talking to manufacturers I now see that is far more complex than that.

post #23 of 58

@Currawong: Let's play dumb. What is there besides the data arriving intact each ms +/- jitter (a few ns, limits are stated in the USB spec)?


Edited by xnor - 7/31/13 at 5:34pm
post #24 of 58

I would like to see the jitter measurement of the Sonicweld Diverter jitter measurement. JayDee promised to post the data in two weeks in 11/09. I couldn't find it anywhere; not in the Diverter thread or his web site. I am curious because of his post here.

 

http://www.sonicweld.com/index.php/2012-02-24-00-47-02/diverter-hr

 

I would also like to know his jitter performance compared to all those cables and equipment he cited. A little explanation on how a 6 layer board can reduce jitter generation will be helpful especially on data dependent jitter. I was taught an entirely different theory or I'm completely outdated. A technical paper will be very useful.

 

Quote:

"One track in particular, Ani Defranco's "Pulse" off Little Plastic Castles has a deep acoustic guitar bass thread throughout, the type of bass note that either benefits or is ruined by subtle movements in the speaker's position, power cord choices, and room treatments. Without hesitation, I can report that the bass was much better defined and extended, and more tunefully lower than my speakers had reached prior. It doesn't make logical sense to me, but that is what I can report".

 

He also had a long discussion on his power supply regulation. And he also said in this article the power cable will give a more refined and deeper bass. As a power supply expert, he should be able to explain it. 

 

Finally, I want to know the design methodology to design something that does not make logical sense to him. Please have him join this conversation. Unfortunately Versace passed away, so we can't ask himfrown.gif

post #25 of 58

A $1,300 USB to S/PDIF converter?

 

...

 

darthsmile.gif darthsmile.gif darthsmile.gif

This is too ridiculous not to LMAO.

post #26 of 58
Thread Starter 

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot View Post

I have to say, as much as I like the Sound Science forum, I've seen way too many misleading and unclearly written posts here. 

Even though we are in the outcast corner of the forums, it is still a public forum and anybody can post. That means the things posted here must still be treated as if they could be wrong and filtered for the quality of content.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot View Post

When people go into complicated technical descriptions without providing a clear summary of what they're talking about or putting the facts in context of audibility, it's no wonder that people believe the hogwash that jitter junkies and cable connoisseurs lay down.

As I tried to explain in the first post of this thread, this is exactly the reason I started this conversation here. I would really like to organize the technicalities here without regards to how the uniformed perceive it---and use the information to figure out how to explain the basics in an understandable way to the average Joe B Curious who joins HeadFi to find out if he needs $400.00 usb cables to get the most out of his new E10. Right now, there is one side claiming miracle audio gains attributed to magic USB cables while the other side calls BS, but without properly citing facts. To the outsider it just looks like it's one man's word against another's.

 

Until a few months ago, I was a random, unregistered guest browsing through the forums trying to figure out why there were $10,000 audio cables on amazon and whether the 100 ps jitter problem was some incredibly huge issue that should make me spend more on fancy DAC technology.

 

I want to have the high level technical discussion here---it is the sound science forum after all---and when it's all said in done, I can explain the basics to others in the other parts of the forum  and have the facts accumulated here so I can point the intellectually curious here for the details. 3rd parties who read this and don't understand it are welcome to leave and go back to the nontechnical forums for nontechnical conversations. I try to check in those forums and weigh in whenever I feel I can make a contribution to the general community in a way that is constructive and benefits everybody. I try to demonstrate critical thinking by walking through my thought processes and show the example calculations, etc... so folks can see how a set of facts leads to a conclusion. I try to make my thought process as transparent as possible---and the added bonus with that approach is that if I make a mistake, then somebody who knows better can see the mistake and give a correction. Everybody wins then, because everybody gets to see the answer and we all learn something along the way.

 

I want to avoid the defeatist attitude that it's not worth trying to gather the facts because zealots will be zealots---there's other, less noisy, but nonetheless curious folks out there that are looking for answers and who will listen to a well reasoned argument---they just don't make as much noise as the fanatics. biggrin.gif

 

Whether we're crazy or not, we are all here because we enjoy quality sound reproduction. Some of us just express it in different ways---some more vocally than others and some with more emotional attachment to misconceptions than others.

 

Cheers!

post #27 of 58

Why not $1300? His claim is if people can buy Versace glass for $500, then his price is justified. He basically compared himself to Versace a couple of times. That is why I have the Versace reference.

post #28 of 58
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xnor View Post

A $1,300 USB to S/PDIF converter?

 

...

 

darthsmile.gif darthsmile.gif darthsmile.gif

This is too ridiculous not to LMAO.

I'm pretty sure it's $30 for the USB S/PDIF converter and $1,270 for the weapons-grade uranium that the housing is milled from--- remember, that started as a single billet before it got CNC'd down to it's final form. 

 

Cheers

 

I'm invoking Poe's law here by foregoing an emoticon

post #29 of 58

Per explanation provided by this guy, the heavy chassis is needed for damping the vibration. I guessed that's how you get low jitter. Low vibration = low jitter. No? 

post #30 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvw View Post

Per explanation provided by this guy, the heavy chassis is needed for damping the vibration. I guessed that's how you get low jitter. Low vibration = low jitter. No? 

 

The sources of jitter are considered to be Random (Gaussian) or Non-Random (Crosstalk/Power ripple/Temperature/Vibration). 

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