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Schiit Lyr Tube Rollers - Page 185

post #2761 of 3066
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmahler2u View Post

WB! BOB! We missed you.  Now looks like we're into 6n1p, Chasing after 6n1p HG.
anyways welcome back

beerchug.gif
Hi G!

Well I'm around until my Parts Connexion order comes in. Then it's a soldering time!!! Also ordered upgraded Mundorf Supremes for my intregrated amps (along with the Vishay 1738 .01uf bypass cap tweek).

I'm pretty sure the Lyr will get the cap upgrade after. Mundorf Supremes would be around $35 and totl Mundorf Silver in Oil would be $95, I would definitely upgrade the fuse to silver Hifi tuning while case is open, maybe upgrade some of the other caps. The Mundorf Supremes might fit in the case, the Silver Oils would have to go outside the case. I'd have to create some kind of external housing!

The 6n1p have me hopeful, at least for a Valhalla that I'll eventually get and mod. I always have an open mind! But realistically, as far as matching the HGs...can't see how that's possible. I've been in audio Nirvana with these. I do enjoy rolling the '74s and the VR '75 gray - plate or wire - a very full tone and deep tuneful bass. Fun!

If someone has a pr of 2 mica gray shield or 3 mica Lorenz Stuttgart PCC88 or ECC88s - I'd consider a trade or just a loan swap with a top pr of 6n23ps. Would love to directly compare the two.

Stay well my friend!

Happy Rolling!

beyersmile.png
Edited by rb2013 - 8/30/14 at 10:09pm
post #2762 of 3066
Quote:
Originally Posted by satwilson View Post

One other quick thought, just pulled the 75Rocket6N1P's and rolled the 75REF6N23Ps. I always listen after 3-4hrs warm up, with the 6N1P's usually at least 8-12hrs as they are on burn in. The 75HGS really sounding super bright after 1/2 hour, getting to their HG status after an hour minimum. Hope we can all wait 3-4hrs for eval with these tubes. I realize we all understand this phenomenon with the Russian tubes and the Lyr mosfets. I had decided the 6N1P's were brighter, but the 6N23P's are super bright until 3-4hrs warmup/lyr mosfet warmup. Just sayin....using my go to Metheny CD. RB, were you using the 6N1P in your DAC or Lyr? 
Totally agree the Lyr sounds best when fully warm. I like 6-8 hrs warmup min. If I'm reviewing that night, I'll turn the Lyr on in the early morning. My intregrateds I leave on 24/7 - they sound best after 2 days warm up! Just as smooth as silk, rich full tone. Same goes for the Lyr. On the actual tube swap I give them 10min warmup before listening. I don't think the tubes need that much warmup, but the mosfet ss output sure do. I've never heard the HGs as bright, even when first plugged in. Always supremely musical. They will 'open up' over the course of a couple of days, and the bass will deepen and tighten. Almost a shorten burnin cycle, not as long as the 200 original, but still they do improve over time. Same goes for the '74 Reflektors and '75 Voskhods.

So tube rolling is fine for comparison purposes, but for serious listening time is needed. I do roll prs through my Lyr constantly as I recieve new tubes from overseas. So I have a really good ear when listening to coldish tubes. After doing this so often, for so long, with so many different tube prs I know right away the sound signature. Recently rolled the '74 6n1ps, then '75 VR 6n23p SWGP '73 Voskhod SWGP, '74 6n23p Reflektors, '75 VR 6n23p plate posts. All reviewed with same song (Lorde Tennis Court). The 6n23ps never had the etch of 6n1p. Especially, that sizzily part near the beginning. The bass on the track is very deep and defined. The recorded ambience is amazing. It has a very wide range of high and low end notes, complex passages followed/proceeded by sole percussion strikes and vocals. I love Pat's Unity band (thanks for the recommendation!), but the range is fairly narrow in comparison.

Now my source is the Apl DAC a very smooth tubed dac. I did upgrade my interconnects recently to the silver wired, tube powered shield Audio Thrills with teflon plugs. Kind of expensive at $800 but very transparent, detailed, with an incredible sound stage. This cable system took the realism quotient up a big notch. Very quick and lively! What micro dynamics! Guitar string plucks are amazingly real! On my bigger Maggie system just jaw dropping!
They are not as forgiving as the Supra Swords, but with some tube rolling in the tube powered shielding supply adding back in tonal warmth and richness (Mulllard 12au7). Thru the Lyr/hd800/Moon Black Dragon v2, almost Stax level transparency, speed, and resolution. With the HGs...goose bumps...

Interconnects has this same 'settling in' issue as tubes. It takes at least a couple of days for a cable to sound best . This is after 200+ hrs of breakin. So 'settle' in is different to break in. I believe it has to do with the conduction channels that open between the metals of the cable terminals and input rca terminals. Same goes for the tube pins and the tube socket. These conduction channels allow the electrons to flow, I believe over time these passages 'open up' or the metalic crystalline lattice alters a bit to better allow electron flow. This is why I always use a little DeOxit Gold before inserting new tubes. It acts as a conduction enhancer.

Edit: Added further explaination for better clarity
Edited by rb2013 - 8/31/14 at 7:12am
post #2763 of 3066
Quote:
Originally Posted by satwilson View Post
 

One other quick thought, just pulled the 75Rocket6N1P's and rolled the 75REF6N23Ps. I always listen after 3-4hrs warm up, with the 6N1P's usually at least 8-12hrs as they are on burn in. The 75HGS really sounding super bright after 1/2 hour, getting to their HG status after an hour minimum. Hope we can all wait 3-4hrs for eval with these tubes. I realize we all understand this phenomenon with the Russian tubes and the Lyr mosfets. I had decided the 6N1P's were brighter, but the 6N23P's are super bright until 3-4hrs warmup/lyr mosfet warmup. Just sayin....using my go to Metheny CD. RB, were you using the 6N1P in your DAC or Lyr? BTW, ALL LYR TUBE ROLLERS, UPCOMING HEADFI MEET HERE IN LAWRENCE KS, CHECK THE HEADFI HOMEPAGE, AKA as the mini-pre-east-Canjam2014, just dreaming.... 

Ok Steve, you got me start!  I found my old 6n1p 75 Voskhod, I'm going to roll today.  I'll let you know with the result with my hd800.

Yes, Steve already mention!  We have headfi meeting in Lawrence, Kansas.  Yes, it's happening 9/13/14.  More info in feature content!
Love to meet you, and meet your gears :biggrin:.  Come out and support Kansan Headfi!
post #2764 of 3066
Quote:
Originally Posted by rb2013 View Post


Hi G!

Well I'm around until my Parts Connexion order comes in. Then it's a soldering time!!! Also ordered upgraded Mundorf Supremes for my intregrated amps (along with the Vishay 1738 .01uf bypass cap tweek).

I'm pretty sure the Lyr will get the cap upgrade after. Mundorf Supremes would be around $35 and totl Mundorf Silver in Oil would be $95, I would definitely upgrade the fuse to silver Hifi tuning while case is open, maybe upgrade some of the other caps. The Mundorf Supremes might fit in the case, the Silver Oils would have to go outside the case. I'd have to create some kind of external housing!

The 6n1p have me hopeful, at least for a Valhalla that I'll eventually get and mod. I always have an open mind! But realistically, as far as matching the HGs...can't see how that's possible. I've been in audio Nirvana with these. I do enjoy rolling the '74s and the VR '75 gray - plate or wire - a very full tone and deep tuneful bass. Fun!

If someone has a pr of 2 mica gray shield or 3 mica Lorenz Stuttgart PCC88 or ECC88s - I'd consider a trade or just a loan swap with a top pr of 6n23ps. Would love to directly compare the two.

Stay well my friend!

Happy Rolling!

beyersmile.png

HEY B!

 

Looks like you got your hands full, I'm also busy with gathering people for headfi meeting.  Busy rolling with 74 Ref silver.  Although, I do not rolling 75 HG, because you know my siemens cca die on me. So after that I got little scare about losing tubes...anyways that's my life...I saw the Lite dac60, it's pretty tempting. yes indeed. but I need to wait for that, in fact NO TIME...

good luck hunt Lorenz Stuttgart...I saw that tubes went for $600 pair (3mica).  It's totally hard to find now days...

anyways, good to hear from you.

 

KIT!

post #2765 of 3066

There was a pair of D-getter Telefunken E88CCs (old stock) from a German eBay seller that ended yesterday.  Went for $292 or so.  Way beyond my highest bid.

post #2766 of 3066
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThurstonX View Post
 

There was a pair of D-getter Telefunken E88CCs (old stock) from a German eBay seller that ended yesterday.  Went for $292 or so.  Way beyond my highest bid.

WOW D-getter, that's unusual.  It must be rare item...

post #2767 of 3066
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmahler2u View Post

HEY B!

Looks like you got your hands full, I'm also busy with gathering people for headfi meeting.  Busy rolling with 74 Ref silver.  Although, I do not rolling 75 HG, because you know my siemens cca die on me. So after that I got little scare about losing tubes...anyways that's my life...I saw the Lite dac60, it's pretty tempting. yes indeed. but I need to wait for that, in fact NO TIME...
good luck hunt Lorenz Stuttgart...I saw that tubes went for $600 pair (3mica).  It's totally hard to find now days...
anyways, good to hear from you.

KIT!
Good luck with your meet - sounds like fun! Wish I was closer.

The DAC60 kind shocked me as to how good it was stock out of the box. Cold it was better then my Xindak dac5 with the HG. After 200 hrs with the HG - miles ahead. Maybe gives the Apl Dac that costs 20x + more a challenge. The bass depth was immediately apparent, as was the width and depth of the sound stage. With the HGs, just so musical, but more a naturalness to the sound, a purity that is very, very pleasing. It has to do with the PCM1704 R2R dacs. The last and best of the Resistor ladder type of dacchips. The Sigma Delta or the newer Segmented dacs (like the AKM in my APL and the Bifrost) introduce their own distortions. But it's audible result is heard in the 'Tone'. It's been widely discussed that the R2R dacs have greater and superior tone. That's why the very high end dacs like Zanden and AudioNote use R2R dacchips. They use the venerable Philps TDA1541a, which is only 16bits. The PCM 1704 is the last and highest resolution R2R made true 24 bit. All the newer dacchips have opamps built on the silicon, which are near impossible to bypass, and not good ones due to size and space limitations. The PCM1704 coupled with a discrete tube output section eliminates all opamps in the chain. Ultimate purity - and you hear it. I'm amazed these are still avaiable after all these years. I feel like ordering a dozen!

Here's a great read on dacs and Tone:

http://www.mother-of-tone.com/conversion.htm

$600 for Lorenz triple micas! Ouch!! Yes they're very hard to find.

Happy rolling!
biggrin.gif
Edited by rb2013 - 8/31/14 at 7:55am
post #2768 of 3066

Not seeing details on Schiit Audio's page, but what is the correct heater voltage for the "Lyr 2?" I know it changed or was reduced from the "Lyr" but not seeing details on Schiit Audio web site.

 

Trying to figure out how to evaluate tubes. For example, Tungsram ecc88, 7DJ8 , has 7 volt heaters.

 

Thank you.

post #2769 of 3066
Quote:
Originally Posted by htr2d2 View Post
 

Not seeing details on Schiit Audio's page, but what is the correct heater voltage for the "Lyr 2?" I know it changed or was reduced from the "Lyr" but not seeing details on Schiit Audio web site.

 

Trying to figure out how to evaluate tubes. For example, Tungsram ecc88, 7DJ8 , has 7 volt heaters.

 

Check under the faq - "What about the tubes? Can you roll ‘em?"

 

http://schiit.com/products/lyr-2 

 

They changed from AC heaters to DC heaters and it is the the heater current, not voltage, that was has been reduced. 7V tubes, that is, PCC88 / 7DJ8 are still fine. But again, the maximum heater current has changed. The original Lyr was able to accommodate tubes requiring 0.6A, such as the 61NP. However, the Lyr 2 can accommodate tubes requiring up to 0.415A. And therefore, the 61NP and the E288CC should not be considered safe to use.

post #2770 of 3066
Quote:
Originally Posted by htr2d2 View Post

Not seeing details on Schiit Audio's page, but what is the correct heater voltage for the "Lyr 2?" I know it changed or was reduced from the "Lyr" but not seeing details on Schiit Audio web site.

Trying to figure out how to evaluate tubes. For example, Tungsram ecc88, 7DJ8 , has 7 volt heaters.

Than6LSk you.
If you read through the old thread - Jason from Schiit repeatly said the PCC88 was not an 'approved' tube. Yet Headfiers were able to run PCC88s with some success, even with the 7v optimum operating voltage. As far as I'm aware Jason has made no comment on the Lyr2. The manual says nothing, and the FAQ only mention 6922 types as ok, and recommends against the 6n1p due to the heater changes. The new limitations caused by a change from AC to DC heating (which is a good thing in reducing occasional hum issues depending on one's steadiness and cleanliness of AC current entering the house). Additional power supply filtering was also added. The new Lyr2 should be quieter, even at the same gain levels on lower impedence hps. Of course there is a gain switch as well, which will also help in the volume control sensitivity on low impedence hps an issue spelled out in the 6moons review on page 3 (see below).

Now the PCC88 earned an especially good reputation in the old Lyr with the arrival of the Lorenz Stuttgrat 2 mica and 3 mica PCC88s. They're SQ in other 6v 6922 amps and preamps were never that good (aside from a minor mention in the famed Conrad Johnson 16LS which I owned a decade ago taking 6 6dj8s). So was there some unique synergy with the original Lyr? Sounds like. This could be due to the wide operating range of the Lyr, as well as it's adaptive biasing. So the question is will the legendary PCC88s like the Lorenz Stuttgarts sound as good, worse or maybe even better in the Lyr2? The circuit certainly has changed. Maybe another reason to hold on to the original Lyr or own both if funds permit. At least until some brave (and wealthy) folks can try a Lorenz Stuttgart in the Lyr2, and report their results.



http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/schiit/9.html


Edit PS I not aware of a single preamp designed around or solely for the PCC88 with any stellar reputation. As opposed to the thousands designed around the ECC88.

PSS The Tungsram ecc88 would be a 6volt tube. The 7dj8 a 7volt.
Edited by rb2013 - 9/1/14 at 8:02am
post #2771 of 3066

For steve, I have tried my 75 Voskhod 6n1p SWGP.   So far, it's OKAY tube.  for me, it has small soundstage and general SQ is flat side to my ear.

ALTHOUGH! it has cripness, and separations are all good. (that I liked).  I still have more burn to do,  BUT I think I got miss match tubes.

They told me it's matched pair but I feel not even....I should more listen other genre, we'll see....BUT i'm NOT done...:biggrin:

 

So stay tune!

post #2772 of 3066
The important thing to remember is you are the person listening to your source through your equipment. While it's good to get other peoples opinion, you need to choose what sounds best to you. You also have to be able to go to sleep at night and not worry about what you spent on tubes.

It would be safe to assume that while the Lyr is the piece of equipment in common between the people in this thread, probably everything else in the chain is different. Different source, DAC, cables, power conditioning, headphones, and probably the phase of the moon.

The sound through your headphones is what you need to be happy about. You'll always hear that tube abc sounds better than tube xyz. There is no golden bullet that everyone will be happy with. There are just too many factors involved.

For some it's fun and they can afford to go down the tube rolling rabbit hole. Others can't and try to make their decisions based on other peoples recommendations. It's a slippery slope. Every bodies ears are different.

I'm not trying to stop anyone from rolling tubes, you just have to find what sounds best to you. I was involved with a group that had an integrated amp in common. We would buy as a group a pair of tubes and send them around to give everyone a chance to try them in their amp. Sometimes someone would have an extra set and would send them around the circle. Everybody would be able to listen in their own environment.

Sometimes instead of sending out the tubes, we would have a meet where we would one up the amps and give everybody to listen to the different tubes, cable, headphones, or anything else so they could make an educated choice for their own systems. Some people decide the stock equipment met their needs. Others found they liked a configuration and would go home and build their system that way.

I'm not trying to sound like a curmudgeon. I have expensive tastes and have a good idea of the synergy with tubes in my own equipment. I just don't want to see people read that abc is the best tube based on others opinions and convince themselves they need that $300 tele tube.
post #2773 of 3066

I think it is important to point out that both the old and new Lyr provide 6.3 volts to the heaters. If you put a 12.6 volt tube into the Lyr, the tube still gets only 6.3 volts. So a 7DJ8 will get only 6.3 volts regardless of which Lyr one has. The fact that people have been able to successfully use these 7 volt tubes in their 6.3 volt amps is due to the fact that tubes were designed to perform within spec as long as the heater voltage was within plus or minus 10% of the rated value. So a 7 volt tube will operate within spec between 6.3 volts and 7.7 volts. Thus, changing the heaters from AC to DC should have no affect on the operation of the 7DJ8 other than perhaps a reduction in noise and hum.

 

However, as rb2013 notes above, there may well be other differences between the old and the new Lyr that could affect the SQ of the 7DJ8, but simply changing from AC to DC heaters is not one of them.

post #2774 of 3066
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmahler2u View Post

For steve, I have tried my 75 Voskhod 6n1p SWGP.   So far, it's OKAY tube.  for me, it has small soundstage and general SQ is flat side to my ear.
ALTHOUGH! it has cripness, and separations are all good. (that I liked).  I still have more burn to do,  BUT I think I got miss match tubes.
They told me it's matched pair but I feel not even....I should more listen other genre, we'll see....BUT i'm NOT done...biggrin.gif

So stay tune!
Can't wait to get your full report! I thrust your learned ears. The 60' blackplate 6n1p-e box anodes should be here soon, after burnin I'll relay my impressions.

Cheers my friend!

And happy Labor day...a BBQ for. today? The grill here will be as toasty as a 6n1p after Zepplin III. tongue.gif
post #2775 of 3066
Quote:
Originally Posted by gibosi View Post

I think it is important to point out that both the old and new Lyr provide 6.3 volts to the heaters. If you put a 12.6 volt tube into the Lyr, the tube still gets only 6.3 volts. So a 7DJ8 will get only 6.3 volts regardless of which Lyr one has. The fact that people have been able to successfully use these 7 volt tubes in their 6.3 volt amps is due to the fact that tubes were designed to perform within spec as long as the heater voltage was within plus or minus 10% of the rated value. So a 7 volt tube will operate within spec between 6.3 volts and 7.7 volts. Thus, changing the heaters from AC to DC should have no affect on the operation of the 7DJ8 other than perhaps a reduction in noise and hum.

However, as rb2013 notes above, there may well be other differences between the old and the new Lyr that could affect the SQ of the 7DJ8, but simply changing from AC to DC heaters is not one of them.
Thanks Gibosi! That bodes well for the PCC88 in the Lyr 2. At least the better ones. I tried the Lorenz SEL and Siemens PCC88 gray shields...in the immortal words of Mr Scarey "I torn those out, openned my front door and threw them as high as possible over my front street"! LOL!! etysmile.gif YMMV.
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